THO Game Calls Forums
The Art of Handcrafting Custom Game Calls => Handcrafting Custom Turkey Calls => Turkey Call Making Tutorials => Topic started by: Rick Howard on February 28, 2015, 11:00:53 PM
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If you will all bear with me… lets talk material.... again..... I have sworn off of exotic wood (imported from tropics). It is a personal choice that I have made. I take no issue with others using it. I don't want to go into that topic but it is the root reason for my questions.
After searching through many of web forum, what other call makers are using, and my own personal preference it appears Purpleheart is a highly favored striker material. Dymondwood and a few others are quite popular also. But the availability of dymondwood looks scarce for the time being and the others are exotics.
I am seeking a domestic alternative to purpleheart. I am talking 2 piece strikers. Dowel into a topper. For sake of discussion assume all variables of the striker are the same with exception to the dowel material. I am looking for domestic alternatives to purpleheart.
I am trying to wrap my head around what makes purpleheart such a good striker. I have my assumptions. However, I figured I would ask if anyone had any insight on why purple heart so good. If your answer is: I hate purpleheart and it is a terrible striker, than I am not asking you lol.
In essence this question really is what makes a striker good and the answer to that is likely as varied as the individual using it. But for those who like what they like. I am sure there are physical characteristics that are responsible for the fondness. I am trying to figure out what they are, specifically.
In attempt to compare woods I did some research on Janka rating, specific gravity, and density of different woods. Specific gravity seems like a waste of time. Density and the Janka rating seem considerable. I am NOT a scientist. But within reason I like to consider everything. I am not going to break out the microspoe and start comparing cellular structure though. Does anyone have a tangible they to recommend?
Obviously I am not going to get out of this without trying stuff. I don’t want to either. Trying things is the fun part. For that sake of knowledge I like to know why something works, not just that it works. So before I jump right in I like to think about it and do some research. Likely this post is just me writing down my thoughts. But I figured I would share my thoughts to see if anyone has any insights.
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I am interested to hear more about what you found in your Janka research.
Purpleheart random thoughts. It is dense. Its end grain cell structure is different than others. Notice the little 'pits' in the end? PH is consistently dense, and does not waver much from one tree to another.....one board to another. Its so consistent, I don't think it matters about the tree size it is coming out of, or the growth rings out of one tree/board to another. Though, I don't know about the trees. I have never seen a PH tree.
All that said about PH, I think you are on a great path with the Janka chart.
ALL that said, I think you will find your domestic answer is hickory. And I personally don't think hickory holds a candle to PH. But, it is a great choice for a domestic wood, and I have killed several birds with it.
If you don't want to discuss this part any more, that is fine, just throwing my perspective out there: So, the side note of you not wanting to use exotics.....even with dymondwood at the root being a domestic wood.....PH is a whole lot more 'wood' than dymondwood is. Dymondwood is REALLY just a whole lot of plastic. I don't hold myself to the standards you are talking, I use them all, because I use the materials that make the best sound I can get for a field call. If a company were to say 'domestic woods' and then offer dymondwood as an option, it would make my mind skip a page or two.
Vince
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So, sidebar more to help you find some answers....
You could order a gob of domestic wood dowel options from Dowels On Demand to give them a try.
You could try hedge. I have ran a lot of nice hedge strikers, but the wood has a slight 'gum' to it though it is hard.
I have sent a lot of cherry strikers out the door. They need to be a little thicker....especially in the head....but they sound good. They used to be my basic striker out the door when I only made one peices. My other striker out the door then was dymondwood. The thing with cherry, is it sucks up moisture really bad on a humid spring morning, and this deadens the call.
Black walnut can make a nice striker too. A little thicker head gets you some density in the striker that you need. I have also killed a lot of birds with a walnut striker that has rode in my pack several years. Its peg is a little thicker too. Its a smooth, mellow striker.
You could also make a striker out of oak. Probably red oak would be the best choice. Oak is a pain to turn and sand though, compared to others. The other thing about oak is its big difference from it compared to PH. An oak 'vein' can hit right on the tip of a striker peg. This can make the striker a beast, or make it a dang dud. Its a finicky wood to hit just right for that consistency from one to the next of having a 'design' to say....this is my OAK design that works consistently every time.
That enough jabber jawing for now? :)
Strikers used to be my go-to thing to turn year in, year out. Just in the last couple years, I have transitioned to grunters rather than strikers for my 'I gotta turn something fix'.
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Awesome info Vince! Thank you.
I suppose your right. I can't throw something out there and not give a little reasoning. I don't wish to use exotic tropical woods for several reasons. Health concerns, business practices, and I feel we have plenty of good choices right here at home. I really do not want this thread to be about that topic though. So that is as much as I will discuss here. Maybe in this case I will bend my rule and use purpleheart for lack of substitute. I don't know yet. I am not trying to be bullheaded so I apologize if the text reads like I am.
I am not only considering wood. I am open to other materials. I should have said this in the OP. I am not certain how to compare the other materials yet. So I am starting with just wood. Stabilizing or other manner of treating wood has crossed my mind. Stabilizing seems cost prohibitive though.
I will be sure to share whatever my findings are. I doubt any real conclusions can be made based solely on Janka Rating and/or density. As you said the grain, natural oils, and other elements have their part and will skew this but...
Prelim from memory comparing Janka on some popular options:
Purpleheart- 1860
Ipe- 3684
Osage- 2040
Hickory- 1820
Read Oak- 1290 (white oak is 1360)
cocobolo- 1136
black walnut- 1010
cherry- 995
Based only on Janka appears people favor above 1000. The fewest folks like the low end. A few more favor the high end. And the most are about in the middle.
I have been pouring over the DOD spread sheet and wood characteristic charts for hours (the last few nights it has occupied my couch time). Wife watches TV and reads a book at the same time.... I look at wood lol. Too much snow to be chasing coyote. They can walk on it but I cant. Forget it. It will melt eventually. I digress. I am putting a list together to order.
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This is obvious but I will point out before someone else does.... People like different strikers for different sounds and on different surfaces. I know the combinations are endless. I don't think I am going to solve the worlds problem of finding one best striker for every person, on every surface, and for every sound in the persons hand on every surface. I am trying to get a better understanding.
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I would be looking for domestic woods with a similar density and hardness to Purple Heart , of which the list is quite short... and then pare it down further by looking at the porosity. However, I can't begin to imagine how much of a difference a wood's tonal qualities and resonance could make. Most tonewoods make incredible sounding duck calls, maybe strikers share in this relationship of sound, maybe not.
BUT, what I really want to know is:
What is (are) the cause (causes) of your personal aversion to using exotic woods?
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I actually prefer Pecan/Hickory for striker pegs.
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I actually prefer Pecan/Hickory for striker pegs.
I had forgotten pecan because one of my boys is allegic to it. It is another good domestic choice (but exotics have been kicked off the list for allergy problems).
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And please don't take my questioning of you not using exotics as some kind of knocking Rick. It is your choice, your shop, your world. You do what makes you happy. My thing is, I like to understand why folks choose certain paths to go against the grain.
And this is not a huge leap. It is just a limiting one for turkey calls.
Have you thought about this? Most folks when they request a specific striker type, it is more than likely going to be purpleheart, rosewood, or dymondwood. What are you going to tell them to do?
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I am a striker NUT, so I sure hope you don't mind me grinding on this topic just as much as you are. I love to try to learn new things about striker work.
I once turned a striker right down the middle that was half PH/half black walnut. It was a BAD dude! The guy I gave it to, his dog ate it before season started! Ugh! :)
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Persimmon, hickory, Osage and pecan. You also have the option of acrylic that some people use. Brookfield has the acrylic dowels, they might also have all the woods in dowels, I don't know.
For me turning dowels is the pits, I would rather buy them. One piece strikers are great, but to turn dowels for 2 piece strikers isn't going to happen in my shop.
Marvin
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Vince I am not offended by anything. I am happy that you are grinding on this subject. I feel there is a good discussion going and I am learning. Splinting a striker in half and gluing two different halfs together sounds like something I would try. I think I may lol. I may glue different tips on stuff or laminating stuff. I have all kinds of ideas.
I have spent many hours in the last year trying pots, and strikers. I recorded them and play them back. I inspect the tips and grain and every little detail I can think of. And take notes. It is just my nature. But my time thus far pales in comparison to the experience here at THO. This is why I posted. Knowledge on the subject is what I am after. Not time saving so I can slap thing together and send them out the door. I wont take anyone's word for anything. I still gotta try it myself. But I will ask the question to see what other folks have to say. Often I am shown something I had not considered and I make a better call because of it. Kinda like a no stone un-turned philosophy.
Joe, I have health concerns about turning many tropical woods. This is my main reason. BUT, if I am just turning a domestic topper and using a purpleheart or other exotic dowel... Maybe its an option. If I can find a good home grown alternative, I would prefer that. <--- Vince this kinda answers some of your question in regards to customer request. Maybe I can offer and alternative that is comparable. Maybe they have to shop somewhere else. Probably not a wise financial decision. Honestly I did not start making calls to make money. Actually, I knew it was going to cost me money. I started making predator calls because wanted to make my own. I started selling the calls by accident really. A fella inquired about buying some. One thing led to another, now I sell calls.
Maybe I will have to reconsider exotics. However, I am not totally convinced that I will be selling pots or strikers anyway. I am just tackling making good ones right now. :)
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Marvin I totally agree. I wont turn a 5/16" dowel. I will buy them.
Persimmon, Pecan, Hickory, Osage, and Locust are what I have been looking at. Also I threw Red and White oaks on there. I have an oak striker that I like on an aluminum surface.
I will try the acrylic again but I do not like the one I have. I have a carbon striker from Mike Yingling that I like on most pots also. Carbon is an option I am considering.
Holy smokes... its 2:30 am here. I'm obsessed.
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I am waiting for the end of the High Chaparral, reruns but worth seeing a dozen of so times. From midnight to 2AM, now bedtime in Texas.
Marvin
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Rick, have you considered Ash? I've never used it so I can't say good or bad things about it. Just seems like it may be another option.
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Rick I also enjoy using domestic woods there's nothing better than sawing up some wood from where you hunt ,making a call,and using that call to harvest. As with purple heart I've also used the janko chart for some time but as I'm sure you found in your research side grain and end grain have a different janko rating. As striker builders vibration and density are key for me. If you have two same strikers with different lengths you will get a different tone. So if your wanting something close to purple heart my suggestion would be hickory or honey locust because it has similar hardness then play with the length s.
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A little more on Janka ratings. It appears that you can find a range of ratings for the same wood. Which figures as wood is not known for ultra consistency. I have found purpleheart ratings of 1860-2520. That seems like quite an unpredictable range. As someone also pointed out. Janka is measured in the side grain not the end grain. I still think the Janka rating is important. Just not as important as I thought.
There is a certain amount of "grab" that each wood has. I do not know how to define that better or to measure it. I am thinking that the density, hardness, and grain all contribute to that characteristic. The grabbyness is part of the reason I like or dislike a striker for a particular surface. On the slicker surfaces like crystal and copper I like a grabby but heavier striker. On slate I prefer something a little slicker and medium to light weight. I have not gone so far as to weigh strikers. But I think I will pull out the scale at some point.
I am over thinking here but that is part of the fun for me. I let my mind go crazy thinking of every detail I can . Then rein it back in to what is important. It is just the way my brain works.
Ash is on the list JCZ. I think my eyes were going batty last night and I skipped it lol.
Just guessing I think black locust has great potential. I made up a striker last spring from black locust. It was not great but it has potential. I think my design was poor.
Ryan, you point out another reason I prefer domestic wood. I like to get some of it myself too. I find it rewarding to go from tree to call. Eventually I would like to source my own slate too. That is way ahead of me though.
Thank you fellas for all of the interest and great responses. Honestly, I did not expect to get this much discussion and I am thrilled with the discussion going on. I am learning a lot.
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Rick, i like locust as a striker wood, as far as how close it is to purpleheart ( not sure )
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Most of the uses for which Hedge seems to be a preferred wood, Black Locust and Mulberry are quite frequently used as substitutes. I think if you can figure one of them out from a dimensional standpoint, you'd have three woods you could use interchangeably with high relative repeatability. I'd be trying Persimmon if I were you, it's hard as nails and in the ebony family, indicating good tonal qualities.
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I dont know why, but It is hard to beat some of the exotics.
I recently ordered 100 PH dowels from dowel on demand, and he put in about 20 extra samples for me to try.I turned a head and put in a purple heart peg and played a call, Excellent results. I took the PH out of the head and tried an osage peg that he gave me, and then a hickory, and then a bubinga, and then a jatoba, by far the exotics outplayed the domestics with jatoba winning first place. I wish now i would have ordered some jatoba as my stock is running low.
I would do like Vince says an order a buch of dowel pegs from dowels on demand, try 3-5 of each. Get some various domestics, get some various exotics and try em out to see which ones play well for you.
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Jatoba is not an overly hard wood. I am surprised it performed that well, I would want to test it in a humid environment before sending a bunch out the door. Just my opinion.
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Anyone tried American Beech?
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Jatoba is not an overly hard wood. I am surprised it performed that well, I would want to test it in a humid environment before sending a bunch out the door. Just my opinion.
I have been making jatoba one piece strikers for a few years now, never once had a problem. I did a one piece comparison to PH before and Jatoba outperformed as well.I tried the 2 piece experiment this time trying to have an apples to apples comparison. I do like Ph, but for now Jatoba is my favorite.
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Anyone tried American Beech?
Spectraply used to be made out of beech. It is birch now, just like colorwood. Beech and birch are very similar in their qualities. Colorwood makes a pretty good striker, but it is a light weight option similar to cherry.
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Jatoba is not an overly hard wood. I am surprised it performed that well, I would want to test it in a humid environment before sending a bunch out the door. Just my opinion.
I have been making jatoba one piece strikers for a few years now, never once had a problem. I did a one piece comparison to PH before and Jatoba outperformed as well.I tried the 2 piece experiment this time trying to have an apples to apples comparison. I do like Ph, but for now Jatoba is my favorite.
Good deal man. Good to know!
My favorite box call is a jatoba box with a purpleheart lid. :)
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Is purple heart best to use on a 1 piece striker or a 2 piece?
If it used on a 2 piece what is the best wood to use for the topper?
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I have found in my VERY little experience that purple heart with a light head is way to high pitch. I like a medium to heavy striker head on it. Any wood would be fine as long as you get the weight right.
(:2:)
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oh boy... I have my hands full now. I finished up my orders this morning. Just got a request for a dozen howlers. It will be a few weeks before I get shop time for turkey calls. My quiet time will be filled with research though. I have a pretty good list of domestic suspects to try.
My plan is to order several dowels of various species. Spin a few toppers. One Heavy, One mid weight, and one light. I wont glue anything together for trial so I can adjust the length. I will test material, overall weight, and length. Then I will record what I have. Then work on balance if needed.
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Someone needs to compile all of the info off of this thread and then make it a sticky.
Rick Howard, you started this thread, when you get all the info compiled and sorted how about a report to the masses as to what you have found?
Marvin
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Is purple heart best to use on a 1 piece striker or a 2 piece?
If it used on a 2 piece what is the best wood to use for the topper?
PH shines in its grabbing qualities. The striker needs a balanced head to go with it (balanced heavy) no matter the wood. My 2 piece PH strikers usually have a rosewood head for contrasting qualities. My fancy headed strikers have a chunk of spectraply on the top though.....just a little bigger that the rosewood ones.....to have more weight up there.
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Ryan, you point out another reason I prefer domestic wood. I like to get some of it myself too. I find it rewarding to go from tree to call. Eventually I would like to source my own slate too. That is way ahead of me though.
I don't make pots so I don't have any experience using it for striker's but you might think about dogwood too, I do know it is a very hard and dense wood.
Lewis
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Dogwood makes an outstanding striker. It is hard to find pieces large enough for one piece strikers, but if a guy could get into some thicker dogwood, a guy would be set.
Great thought Lewis!
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I bet it would be hard to find some good size dog woods I have a lot of them on the farm in w.v. but they are no bigger than my wrist I may have to look into it. It won't be to much longer befor they bloom around here.
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Try some Apple, Rick. I've heard from ALOT of guys that it is a good striker wood. ;D
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Marvin, I intend to share what I find. Predator calls are locking up all my shop time right now. As soon as I am out from under those, which will likley be late March, I will start more work on strikers. The majority of my effort will be durning the summer in my slowest months.
Till then. I am going to spend my couch time planing. And going through forum posts to find more insight.
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Not to add too many variables to your already complex list, but on some of the domestics, have you tried varying the diameter of the peg and noting the results? I mostly turn one piece strikers and matching the diameter of the peg to the wood is pretty crucial for me. One other modifier has been whether i use a mushroom head or straight head. So many options with strikers, but thats what makes it fun.
-Rick
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Try some Apple, Rick. I've heard from ALOT of guys that it is a good striker wood. ;D
Apple is another interesting one to add to the list for sure. I can't really explain the grab it has, but its an interesting one. Completely different than others.
On that thought, I was remembering the last guy I made an apple striker for, and I also made him a mesquite! That's another GREAT domestic option to add to the list! I wish I had more of it to use for strikers!
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Rick, I'm going with 5/16" dowels that are purchased. Like you said, it's another variable to consider for sure.
It would take a life time to truly test all variables. I think my plan for testing will allow me to make some connections though.
Maybe we can break down and discuss what makes a striker function. Keep in mind the following is not being stated as fact. If something in the following is inaccurate please Inform. The friction of the striker running across the surface makes the surface vibrate and resonate into the rest of the pot. Correct? If that's true than the "grab" of the striker is the first thing that would matter. If the striker does not grab than it will just slide across the surface and no noise happens. If it Grabs too much than it won't slide across the surface and no sound again. If all of the before is true than a striker functions based on the proportions of grab and slide. I think the "grab factor" is controlled by the grain, hardest, and weight, of the overall striker.
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I think the "grab factor" is controlled by the grain, hardest, and weight, of the overall striker.
Three things also come to my mind with the user too though, that is going to be hard to control, and hard to measure. All a tester can do is try to be consistent and realize how they 'do it' may not compute to the next tester, or the end user.
Angle of the striker as it is presented to the surface (this WOULD be the easies to control).
How and where on the peg the striker is held.
And the biggest problem to measure: how much pressure is applied by the tester, in both side to side pressure in their grip, and downward pressure applied from the peg to the call surface.
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I'm always the contrarian....while I can hear the subtle differences that various woods make I think that maybe for some woods the differences are too subtle.
As call makers we hear things that buyers do not hear. We have a sound we are looking for and often find it by changing strikers. The funny thing is that you could call in and take a turkey with any number of striker/call combinations. Sometimes we as makers and hunters alike obsess over the little things. I'm just as guilty.
Like you I am going to be using domestics exclusively. I am in the early stages of branding my calls. I intend on advertising them as 100% American made with 100% American components. Walnut, cherry, persimmon, black locust, pecan, hedge, poplar, etc. I find that on glass and copper/aluminum is where I get the biggest change with different strikers. I would say to my ears that persimmon is very close to PH.
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You fellas you have brought up a good point. The human factor that I have been trying to wrap my head around. I think for this test to tell us anything, a very large sample group repeating the same test with the same "tools" would be required. The average might reveal something (might not too). However, that is logistically more than I am prepared to deal with. In the end I come right back to the age old tradition of trying things until you find some thing you like and build YOUR call.
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In the end I come right back to the age old tradition of trying things until you find some thing you like and build YOUR call.
I think that is what each call maker should do because no two turkey calls sound just alike and no two turkeys sound just a like. Maybe you make one and see how well the turkeys like it. Turkey hunters love their turkey calls and not all who hunt make them but they do like to have one from several different call makers. Most turkey hunters can't even carry all their turkey calls into the woods when they go after the long beard but they carry as many as they can and sometimes one will work and other times another will work. Until you see how the turkey responds all your testing is pretty well moot unless we want to be like the fish lure mfgs. who build the lures to lure the fisherman to buy and just hope the fish like it too. Let's hope no one ever finds that magic formula that is the end all be all and is the perfect call because when they do, hunters will not need to buy from many different makers. They will just buy the one. I am just now starting to build them because I want to see what I can do with the ones I make but that doesn't mean I don't already own a bunch of calls because I do and I am one who can't carry all of them into the woods. I am also an avid fly fisherman and I tie my own flies and build my own rods. At first I thought it would save money but that was a big joke. I have spent more money on materials than I ever would have by buying the finished produce but it is the thrill of catching that fish on the fly you tied and the rod you built. I think the same thing goes with game calls.
I sure do appreciate all the info you guys impart on this forum. I have learned more reading what you have to say than I would have in years of trial and error. Thanks a bunch. Maybe one day I too will have something to contribute and can return a portion of the wealth of knowledge I have tapped into here on this board. Thanks a bunch. Tight lines and good calling.
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Another great point, Ron. Using my line of thinking it is easy to lose sight of the fact that the turkey has to like the sound more than me. Which is the MOST important factor.
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A thread on how a striker works with a great response from Larry.
http://thogamecallsforums.com/index.php/topic,22299.0.html
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I'd be interested in knowing whether the specific composition of the oil found in the Purpleheart isn't what makes it 'stick' so well. Whatever the oil is, it is unique. As I understand, Peltogyne (purpleheart) is actually a brown wood in the heart of the tree when first cut, it turns purple when exposed to the atmosphere. Perhaps, its something behind the dynamics of that composition that makes this oil different than that of other exotics.
You know it does burn easier that that of other exotic's oils - if you take notice when turning.
Wondering if at the microscopic level, if that slight oil residual at the tip of a striker acts like surfboard wax under one's feet...providing 'grab'
You have really got me thinking on this one. I would love to look at the end grains of these woods under a powerful microscope.
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A type of wood I have not seen listed here (and maybe for good reason) is Mountain Laurel. I cut up some Mountain Laurel last year and it will soon be ready to turn. To me, ML is extremely hard, tight grained, and heavy in comparison to other domestics. When I cut it up, I'd be willing to send Rick a few pieces for strikers to add to his list of "theoretical" best options.
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Jeff, that would be outstanding! Thank you!
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I have not forgotten about this post. Right this minute I am working on compiling all the information I can find on strikers. It is difficult to make a comprehensive list by noodling through all of the old post. But... I have my legal pad... pen... a clear dining room table... and caffeinated beverage(s).
Since starting this post I have done a little bit of work on strikers and a lot of thinking/reading. I know I am kinda repeating myself here: Because of the staggering amount of variables I do not feel a legit test can be performed. The results would likely be meaningless beyond what we already know. Also they would be too personalized. However, I am going to try as many as I can get my mitts on and slowly report what I like and the characteristics. I encourage other folks to add in what they think. If you do I ask that you tell us more than just... I like "XXX" wood. Maybe some details on why you like it. Maybe some design characteristics of the striker.
I emailed Dowels on Demand. Turns out... there not so on demand but more like when they can. <--- this is a joke. I understand the service being provided. I am not knocking them. Just pointing out the irony. Anyway, I will have to try to email them again soon.
Adding to the topic and a little food for thought. To me a good call works well. A very good call works well and sounds good. A great call works well and sounds good all the time. My point being that there is an element of function in a call. Its very a very important element to me. A call that works good and sounds good each time I pick it up is the one I will hunt with. It may not be the best sounder in my collection but.. its the least temperamental and has good sound.
When running pot calls they give up their sound eventually and conditioning or cleaning is required. There is no avoiding the need of conditioning, from what I can tell. Obviously surface of the call is a large part of this condition. But, like everything in a turkey pot, everything matters. The striker is subject to some conditioning too. Without going to far into methods of conditioning being used id like to know more about how a specific woods properties play into the length of time before it needs conditioning. <--- I think this is a huge part of why people like what they like whether they know it or not.
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Post for reference:
http://thogamecallsforums.com/index.php/topic,21270.0.html
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I just read through a post about strikers. Much of it was information that has been pointed out here already but, the gentlemen explain it a little different and it clicked a little better for me. It appears I have been looking at this the wrong way.
I will try to paraphrase: The wood's characteristics can be "overcome" by the dimensions of the striker. The balance between the tip end and the head is critical. Its about moving the mass. So essentially if the wood is stickier or slipperier I can adjust the weight of the head to make them mirror each other.
I will say the same thing again but a different way: The wood is only important if you are stuck on a certain dimension.
Am I accurate in my interpretations?
Here is a mind bender then... The same physics should apply to all materials.
I hope I am not beating this thread to death. It is helping me and I think it will help other new guys who stumble across this thread in the future.
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I agree to a point. You can't change the cell structure of a species though, so you can only change the GRAB of a specific wood SO much.
An extreme example. No, you can't make a poplar striker sound exactly like a rosewood striker, though both can make a striker (My opinion).
Some 'unique grab' woods to me...... Apple, hedge, purpleheart.
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I just read through a post about strikers. Much of it was information that has been pointed out here already but, the gentlemen explain it a little different and it clicked a little better for me. It appears I have been looking at this the wrong way.
I will try to paraphrase: The wood's characteristics can be "overcome" by the dimensions of the striker. The balance between the tip end and the head is critical. Its about moving the mass. So essentially if the wood is stickier or slipperier I can adjust the weight of the head to make them mirror each other.
I will say the same thing again but a different way: The wood is only important if you are stuck on a certain dimension.
Am I accurate in my interpretations?
Here is a mind bender then... The same physics should apply to all materials.
I hope I am not beating this thread to death. It is helping me and I think it will help other new guys who stumble across this thread in the future.
Rick I like beating this one cause I have spent so much time over the years figuring this out on my own.
Your paraphrase I think should read "Certain characteristics of the wood can be overcome by changing up on dimensions"
As in weight and density you can"t change the overall structure of the wood fibers which I believe also enter into the equation also which affect the grab positive or negative.
I think a truer statement would be "The wood type is important always and is thus adjusted for length and weight to achieve the desired sound of the maker"
I believe the same physics do not apply to ALL Materials. I once messed around with Corian and it never would work no matter how short or long or whatever sizes I came up with. I also did the same with Acrylic to no avail. So I believe some materials do not react in a positive nature toward the end result we want as in the sound we want to achieve. Sure there is reaction across the surface but not what we want.
Larry
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Thanks fellas. Looks like I over shot a bit. I think I am failing to see all the ways that grain effects the operation.
I feel it is important to point out, I am trying things as I go. The information here is helping me to make sense of what I am doing but, I still do it. Trying things is a valued part of the learning process for me.
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I am all about grinding this topic into the DIRT. Its still at about 2-3 feet above ground if we started at 10. :)
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I am all about grinding this topic into the DIRT. Its still at about 2-3 feet above ground if we started at 10. :)
Probably closer to 8 feet above ground. Wood from the same species is different depending where it was grown. Maple up north is not like the maple grown on Texas. The Mesquite from north Texas is not like the mesquite from south Texas. Same species but the growth rings are different and the hardness can even vary by the amount of average rainfall in the different areas. I believe even the minerals in the soil have a cause and effect on the final wood product.
Wood is not like man made materials, so many variables that the characteristics can only be described in generalized terms. I had a hickory log that came from Houston that was nothing like some hickory blanks that came from Arkansas.
Marvin
Marvin
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Probably explains a lot about the differences we see in Cocobolo?
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This has definitely been one of the better reading topics posted in a while. Thanks Rick and to all that have contributed to this thread. Not that this particular topic will ever be totally agreed upon or not, this thread requires thought, understanding, and comprehension. It made me think allot about all of all my processes related to call making.
Jeff
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I learned a few things today... One pertaining to strikers too! The head needs to be on the dowel pretty tight or glued. I was trying to play one that was not fixed into position and it would hardly play at all.
I came about this "discovery" While experiment with different heads on a dowel. I turned up a half dozen heads and was changing them out and adjusting lengths. One was not on very well and it would not play. Now I use a small piece of paper towel to jam fit but I can still adjust it.
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So far... it is looking like Black Locust is pretty close to Purple Heart, for me. When plugged into the same topper and condition the same. They play and sound similar. Not an exact match but close enough that I like it. I can not say I am surprised. I may have even said it already my hunch was Black Locust was high on my suspect list. Based on the Janka ratings, densities and grain they are fairly similar.
I have not been able to try all the suggestions yet. I have tried Hickory, Oak (red and white), Black Locust, Maple, Walnut, and Cherry. I will have to keep trying these as it quite apparent that all dowels in the same species are not made equal (I think someone already pointed that out).
I still do not have a way to quantify any "Results". So I am just going to keep on trying things and posting what I think.
I am going to try a third email to Dowels On Demand right now. I hear they have a large order going on at the moment that they are filling but I have not heard from them. At all lol. I guess the fella has the market cornered as I keep trying.
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No doubt he has the market cornered. What ever machine he has, he has it fogured out. It spits out a great product.
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Ever thought about Persimmon? I really like it.
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Yes sir. It is on the list. I got an email from Dowels on demand last night that my order was received! Persimmon is in that order.
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I turn my own Zebrawood dowels and they do quite well...I've been impressed with them on some slates
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A update. If anyone is still reading my dribble lol.
I have been experimenting, a lot, with length, weight, and balance. Seems that small variations make pretty big differences, relatively speaking. I think I have been barking up the wrong tree (as mentioned already).
A similar match to purple heart in density, grain, and hardness is black locust. Messing with the dimensions I can get black locust and purple heart to play close enough for me. I am sure there are others that will fit the bill. As I keep saying. I am going to keep trying everything I can get my hands on, cause I like to, but I think I have found what I set out for.
I believe I am going to resolve to the use of exotics. At very least for striker dowels. There are too many fun choices to leave them out.
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Awesome Rick..thanks for sharing. Furthermore, thanks for all of your time you are putting into this. Really neat discoveries. :bigup:
Black Locust playing like Purpleheart is great news in more ways than one. I like the fact there is a source, which is not as in dire straits, as the over exploited Purpleheart species is. Great news!
Wonder why it plays like the Purpleheart? Seems to have something to do with the type of oil content these two trees possess, perhaps. Understanding that oil composition to be different, the oil must have some bearing none-the-less. Seemingly all of the other before-mentioned species may or may not, (not 100% certain) contain these types of oils. Wondering if that is the underlying function?
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I bet oil has something to do with things. I have not considered oil much. I would guess it has a bearing on clogging also. I'm not sure how I would be able to determine that though. Not that I have really determined anything here lol. Just musing out loud and applying the suggestions or others.
To make sure I was clear, I am not saying the Purple Heart and black locust are the same. They are similar enough for me. Generally, I like a little heavier topper on the Blsck locust with a slightly shorter overall length. This seems to work very similar to Purple Heart for me. I think the "human factor" might be different for others. I did my best at holding the striker in different positions and with different grip strength. Although doing This was difficult to know if the differences were from me using a striker in a less comfortable maner or actually differences in the materials lol.
After turkey season I will have more time for tinkering again. Right now I am focusing on turkey hunting and making calls for friends and myself.
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Yeah, my bet is on the oil composition. :punk:.
"Heavier topper on Black Locust with shorter overall length" - plays very similar. I might have to try that.
Thanks for musing out loud. I have enjoyed it.
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This topic is almost a year old now. Anything new to bring to the table? I had some marblewood blanks cut into striker head blanks I turned this last week. Stuff turned and sanded like magic, but MAN is it heavy! Really have to neck it down small so it doesn't make the striker head TOO heavy and deaden the call setup!
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I have not been able to devote much time to calls in about 8 months. At the end of June we decide to move. July I remodeled our kitchen and bathroom and a few other repairs to our house in Buffalo. Sold the house in August. September we moved to our cottage, north of syracuse, and started remodeling that entirely. In October I had a shop for a few days but then had to reconfigure. Good news is... House is nearing complete and I got my shop back tlast weekend! Most of my wood and some of my tools are still in storage. Making a trip to storage this weeknd to see if I can reclaim some.
I am excited to get back at it.
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That housing change sounds really exciting to me Rick! I hope to make a similar move some day to get out on a back 40 somewhere that I can watch over a valley from my shop window.
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It is very exciting. It has been a life long dream of mine to live here. My great grandfather built this place in the 20's. My grandparents remodeled it in the 60's. My old man remodeled it in the 80's. Now it's my turn I suppose :) It's been a lot of work and still have a decent amount of work to do once the weather warms up. But it's all worth it.
Hope you get yours soon.
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That sure sounds great. You're going to make me go look at property listings again.
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I turn my own Zebrawood dowels and they do quite well...I've been impressed with them on some slates
I'm just starting into this and still in mostly research stage. As a lifelong wood fanatic, I am interested in this thread. Persimmon should be a good one as a member of the ebony family. One I didn't see in this thread that I plan to try is live oak. The hardest domestic wood, with the exception of lignumvitae :). About twice the hardness & density of most domestic hardwoods and a cell structure that doesn't absorb moisture. That's why it was a favored ship building wood (USS Constitution was made with live oak). I cut a couple thou board feet of it some years back when I had a sawmill. Also plan to try red eucalyptus. Anyone ever try these woods on strikers? (or call bodies)
I appreciate all the great info & helpful, friendly advice here!
Greg
http://classicsportingguns.com/
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Oak is not used much in call making. I don't know why, I suppose just because it is a 'plain' wood that is a little tougher to not tear out, and a little tougher to sand.....for what you get in the end as a final product.
Using oak as a striker, the open end cells of oak wood can easily gum up, filling with residue off the striking surface. That is the only reason I can think to not use it often.
I say go for it, and see what you think.
My update to this thread, I used marblewood for my heads of my two peice strikers this year, with a purpleheart peg, and they turned out great.
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I used a red oak on a few pots earlier in my turning days. And a couple duck calls. The wood was free and I was just starting out. I thought they turned out good. But once I moved on to other woods I realized the amount of sanding it took to get it smooth was way more than other more desirable woods.
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Oak is not used much in call making. I don't know why, I suppose just because it is a 'plain' wood that is a little tougher to not tear out, and a little tougher to sand.....for what you get in the end as a final product.
Using oak as a striker, the open end cells of oak wood can easily gum up, filling with residue off the striking surface. That is the only reason I can think to not use it often.
I say go for it, and see what you think.
My update to this thread, I used marblewood for my heads of my two peice strikers this year, with a purpleheart peg, and they turned out great.
Thanks for the input, Vector. Yes I would sure agree on red or white oak. But Live Oak is a very different critter.. Being much heavier at 62# cft Vs 44 for the other oaks. and the hardness is 3200 (about the same as ebony) Vs @ 1300 for the red & white. Very dense & tough wood. I made a 1 piece (live oak) striker today that sounds great, and is the easiest striker to play I've ever used. I'll have to use it awhile to see if it gums up with a lot of use. I will admit it's not the prettiest wood, so I'll probably use it for 2 piece ones. Don't want to hunt with an ugly call. :no:
Greg
http://classicsportingguns.com/
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Never know what will catch the eye of one guy vs another. :)