Author Topic: Run out  (Read 4359 times)

Offline Fat Lip calls

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Run out
« on: November 26, 2016, 06:51:01 PM »
I have a little wobble with my PSI collet chuck & webfoot expandable mandrel I was :just wanting to know what you guys think is acceptable. It's not to bad but there is definitely a run out. First thing I notice was the chuck had sloppy threads when I put it on, also I had to get an 1-8tpi to go on my 3/4-10tpi .I can't spend the money to buy a dial indicator. Help!  if anyone has any info, I am just starting out and it's already putting a bad taste in my mouth.... thanks for any info  :stickman1:

Offline VECtor Calls

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Re: Run out
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2016, 08:28:16 PM »
It is very important to follow the directions of the chuck step by step.  Here is the instruction sheet.  This is a common issue for someone new to using this chuck system.

https://www.pennstateind.com/library/LCDOWEL_ins.pdf
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ben

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Re: Run out
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2016, 08:36:09 PM »
Threads in the collet chuck are not that tight fitting anyway but it is important that it bottom out on the shoulder of the adapter that you screw on to mount the chuck on and if the shoulder is not square for the chuck to bottom on then you are going to get run out and the same is true to the adapter so check those as I doubt it is the chuck if the above instructions are followed posted by Vector.

you can take a pencil and lay it on your tool rest to see where the run out is at although you will not know how much.

ben

Offline Wade@WEBFoot

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Re: Run out
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2016, 09:01:10 PM »
12.99 for a magnetic base and 16.99 for a dial indicator at harbor freight will give you a great idea where things are.  No, it wont be accurate to tenths (tenth of a thousandth - .0001") but will be good enough to help you find out where your issue is.  I have one I would lend you - but between shipping back and forth, youll be a couple dollars away from owning your own.

Eyeballing run out wont do much good.  Id say the top end of acceptable is .003" (the appx width of a human hair).  But the farther out you go, the more amplified it is... half a thou run out at the chuck is a WHOLE LOT more at 3" out from the chuck. 

Start with nothing, check the taper socket of the spindle (ID)... add the chuck, no nut (dont know what the adapter bushing looks like so cant say if you can check the run out on that without the chuck on), check the run out on the ID taper, insert the collet in the nut, assemble the chuck making sure the collet does not come out of the nut, slide the mandrel in, check that.

Where you say 3/4-10 threads... you may not have a MT socket, so look for a machined diameter as close to the end of the spindle as you can find.

Odds are, the collet is not seated in the nut first and is giving you run out due to the collet not seating properly, or having not done that initially, it damaged the collet and wont run true until you find and stone off the bur it created - and may still not if it tweaked the collet.  Or, there are burs on the spindle or adapter mating faces, not allowing the chuck to seat properly (true).  If the run out comes in only when the mandrel is installed (measured as close to the collet as you can get) - grab something else that should be straight and verify (like the shank - non-fluted portion of a 5/8 drill bit.  If the run out is the same, the problem is back at the spindle or chuck.  If it goes away with the drill bit, its likely the mandrel - assuming the drill isnt bent, which isnt very likey on the short portion that doesnt have flutes.

If the needle wiggles much at all at any point, Id be keeping both eyes open for issues - - it will likely bounce a round a little due to surface finish where the probe rides - rougher will bounce more, smoother, less so - so you may have to sort of average out the bouncing.  But anything more than .003" would really have me looking closely at things.  I havent run an indicator on any of mine recently, but can if you want to compare the run out on a beat up 10 year old harbor freight lathe, or a fairly new HF clone of the Jet/Delta Mini/Midi.

If its the mandrel, I cover the shipping both ways for a replacement (bad one back to me, new one out to you).  If you want me to check the mandrel, like I mentioned in my email, feel free to send er my way.  If she is bad, Ill owe you for shipping to me - if its good, youll owe me shipping to ship er back.  Id expect runout on the EA5858 mandrels to be the same as the runout of the chuck - which would likely be tenths depending on the bearings in the lathe and spindle condition.

Being methodical and attention to detail is key...  Your hands can sense the tiniest of burs, so feeling edges and surfaces can often give clues when looking at mating faces.

Wade
« Last Edit: November 27, 2016, 09:52:06 AM by Wade@WEBFoot »
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Offline JP ( liljohn ) Wilkinson

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Re: Run out
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2016, 12:49:57 AM »
I use the same set up. I've got a 5/8, 3/4, & 7/8 mandrel from Wade. And never had a problem with the mandrels or the collect chuck.



JP

Offline Aaron at Wingerts Woodworks

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Re: Run out
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2016, 10:55:39 PM »
99.9% of the time, this is an issue with improper assembly/use of the collet chuck and mandrel.  It seems rather intuitive to most of us but what seems like the right way is not necessarily the right way. 
-Insert the collet into the collet nut
-screw the nut onto the collet body nice and tight
-Loosen the nut enough that you feel it click, but don't remove all the way
-Insert the mandrel
-Tighten the nut down

Doing it in any other order will guarantee it won't run quite right.  Not sure why, but many, many, many call makers have looked stupid by saying it was a Penn State issue or a mandrel issue, then found out they were doing it wrong.

Offline Wade@WEBFoot

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Re: Run out
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2016, 10:26:55 AM »
You dont even need to run the nut on to compress the collet and then back out (and personally I wouldnt) - and if you do that, and tighten the nut too hard with nothing in the collet - it can collapse the collet and cause issues with run out or getting the tool/tool holder/work piece in the collet.  What can happen/and why I wouldnt do it personally, is when you tighten the nut down with nothing in the collet, the collet typically will get forced into the taper farther than it is designed to (range of an ER32 collet is .039" as per every bit of documentation I have ever run into) and when you back the nut of, there is a chance that the collet will come out or partially out of the nut, and since its not disassembled, you wont know it... then you are back to having the collet groove out of the lip in the nut.

Its all about the design - there is an offset ring in the nut.  It is offset so that the collet can be clipped in and removed without a big battle and potential damage to the nut or collet.  The reason the collet has to clip into the nut is so that the cut will pull the collet out of the taper when backed off.

So, if you put the collet in the chuck, then thread on the nut, then put a mandrel in the collet, and tighten it down...  you are trying to force the collet in, with the off center rim in the nut... and not the tapered surface.  Usually what happens then, is either the offset rim in the nut gets bent/damaged, the collet gets damaged by having a sharp corner of the ledge in the nut being forced on the taper of the collet, or both.  Sometimes, with softer chuck bodies, if the collet nut is tightened tight enough, it can cause the collet to dig into the body of the chuck and damage it - but thats not very common. 

Then it becomes a chase to find where the issue is to know what needs replaced...  ie collet or nut or both or potentially everything.

Hope you got it figured out, since you havent replied with any updates or additional questions.
Wade
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Offline Fat Lip calls

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Re: Run out
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2017, 10:12:14 PM »
Sorry guys Been making a ton of calls... I figured it out it was my lathe. I bought a new one and every thing is running true. Wade the mandrel I have from u works but I am going to look into the one that is a tad bit smaller than 5/8. With The one now I have to sand a little in the hole so the blank will slide on all the way... anyway as of now all is good... thank all of u guys for the info!!!!



Offline Wade@WEBFoot

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Re: Run out
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2017, 10:29:38 PM »
If youre using a 5/8" drill and its tight on the mandrel - either the drill is drilling under-size (which does happen) - the mandrel is oversize (which I have not seen yet - but anything is possible), or the mandrel was expanded too far at one point and the petals got bent out and causing things to be tight.

Only way to know is to accurately measure things (micrometer - not calipers - unless they are really good calipers and set).

I would STRONGLY urge you NOT to use a .618" mandrel on a 5/8 bore (.625").  You would be better off spending the time and or money on getting accurate holes and measuring equipment.  Be it a chucking reamer, different drill bit, or even mics, etc....  Usually when holes go oversize (- which is much more common than on size or undersize holes combined -) it can also be the equipment, speeds, feeds, etc...  but when a hole is undersize it pretty much has to be the bit or the material shrinking.  Shrinking bores is why a lot of people use chucking reamers...  easy clean up and open up the bore if you - for example - drill a blank and let it sit for a week before turning.

Wade
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Offline VECtor Calls

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Re: Run out
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2017, 10:02:45 AM »
I would try changing drill bits for this latest issue.
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Offline Aaron at Wingerts Woodworks

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Re: Run out
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2017, 12:00:06 AM »
A chucking reamer is a must!  Could not live without mine.  It cleans up the hole nicely and you're guaranteed a perfect 5/8".

Offline Pure Hunting Custom Game Calls

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Re: Run out
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2017, 05:15:25 PM »
A chucking reamer is a must!  Could not live without mine.  It cleans up the hole nicely and you're guaranteed a perfect 5/8".

Which reamer do you use?  Do you use a taper reamer for the exhaust of you insert?
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Offline FDR

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« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 07:35:37 PM by FDR »
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