Author Topic: Calling questions  (Read 20488 times)

Offline clintfaas

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Re: Calling questions
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2015, 01:39:32 PM »
Okay, so after I posted I grabbed a call and tried it out.  With my teeth open like a normal person, it only makes sense to keep it at the bottom teeth gumline... never noticed I did that.  I'd still like to hear your response though.
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Offline stumpjumper

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Re: Calling questions
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2015, 02:40:51 PM »
Jcluesman....as you throat burst into the call you should feel the feedback from the reed vibrate....you gotta learn to drive the air into that reed to get the call to run for you.  Time

Clint. ...using the tip of the tongue causes thin air (no different than placing a thumb over a water hose).  This cause the call to become thin and tingy not achieving a full thick tone.

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Offline Wade@WEBFoot

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Re: Calling questions
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2015, 05:54:43 PM »
Something I think Stump is trying to allude to with the air side of things is that there are multiple facets of air flow, not just one.  And being able to control each one separately of the others really helps to find the right air for a call.

You can change the air pressure, the volume of air, and the speed of the air with varying the mouth cavity (tongue position), throat (gating - or throat bursts as Stump says), and stomach muscles.  And ALL of this comes into play to get a high quality note.

Jcluesman:  At the risk of contradicting the Stumpenator, Ill try and say the same thing he is, but with different terms. (Im assuming youre using one of Stumps CWFs?)  On your last two clips, your the velocity of the air is too slow.  The Volume is okay it seems, but its moving too slow.  You can increase pressure to increase air speed, but youll also increase volume of air...  which will make the volume of the call go up and likely raise the pitch.  If you increase air speed but adding restriction from either your throat and/or tongue, you will increase air speed, but lower the volume of air - that should yield a better quack at a lower volume and maintain a good pitch.

In your clip 6, youre just "breathing" into the call.  Sounds like its cool air from your chest, not hot, deep down air from your belly, and there is not really any controlled start of each note.  (think about a ref's whistle...  very different sound when you put it in your mouth, puff up your cheeks and blow as compared to tight cheeks (wwwwwhhhhhhEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeehh), or block the whistle with your tongue, take a breath, pressurize your throat and mouth, and pull your tongue back for a sec and then slap it back over the whistle  (WEEEEEEEEEEEEEET)  - Same thing happens with calls... uncontroled air at the start and or end spoils the whole note.  Starting with controlled air, and finishing with controlled air, not only leads to a better note overall, but also it becomes easier to control what the air is doing during the note.

Clip 7, is a little better in terms of there being a start and a stop of each note.  But the air velocity keeps it flat and dull.  With the pitch changes in each note, it seems youre mouthing a word, what is it?  Youll find that using various areas of your tongue to start or stop a note will affect not only the pitch at the start or end of the note, but also in the middle of the note as your tongue transitions from one point to another.  From what I have seen, usually a note ending with an upward pitch change or "swing" is usually caused by the tongue moving too far forward.  Think of the difference when you say the word "ick"  and the word "uck".  The way your note ends, I would suspect tongue position to be like "ick", and what you are probably wanting would be the position of "uck" or even a touch farther back.

Clint:  To harmonize with Stump-a-lumpagus - the tip of your tongue cutting off notes has the tendency to drastically increase air velocity as the tongue moves, because the air is passing through the narrowest portion of your mouth for the tip of the tongue to be able to cut it off.  That will lead to notes ending with an upswing in pitch and fall off in volume which doesnt sound very realistic.  If gating the air with the throat, or using the tongue much farther back in the mouth, you are shutting off the big supply in the same time interval, and not affecting the velocity of the air so much.  Now Im not saying one cant learn to counter act those affects, but its usually pretty easy to pic out a 'tip of the tongue to the top' caller.

Hope I didnt add confusion for anyone one.  Just thought trying the say the same things with different words might help some.  Sometimes the hardest part of learning how to do something is digesting the terminology.

Cheers
Wade


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Offline jcluesman

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Re: Calling questions
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2015, 07:04:22 PM »
Hello!
jcluesman shared a video with you.


View Video, http://s851.photobucket.com/user/jcluesman/media/20150226_184249.mp4.html

I may need to wait for a sound file from Stump. I'm using hut. I'm making sure my tongue is placed behind my teeth at the gum line. I think I'm understanding what you guys are saying. Maybe just poor execution on my part.
Jeremiah

Offline Wade@WEBFoot

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Re: Calling questions
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2015, 08:26:52 PM »
Think about it this way...  You need to gate the air in the back of your throat.  "H" isnt going to allow that because it forces you to open up the air way.
And ending in "t" is going to make the pitch swing up at the end unnaturally.

Think about the techno dance stuff... Oont tsss oont tss oont tss  The begining of the "Oont" is made by gating.
Ending in K or G will help get that arch in your tongue back and cut off the note more naturally.

I wish I could make a sound file, but cant get my recording stuff to work...  apparently the upgrade from XP to Win7 created issues with everything and nothing works.  So Ill have to dig around and see what I can come up with there at some point.  But took a series of quacks from an old recording I did.  Not on the same call as youre using (which was my initial goal) but at least its something.  Notice the note starts and stops abruptly.  Gating the start of the note and cutting off with gating and tongue position using "k".
http://www.webfootcustomcalls.com/soundfiles/10quack.wav

Wade


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Offline jcluesman

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Re: Calling questions
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2015, 09:26:55 PM »
Hello!
jcluesman shared a video with you.


View Video, http://s851.photobucket.com/user/jcluesman/media/20150226_211120.mp4.html

Am I getting closer?
Jeremiah

Offline clintfaas

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Re: Calling questions
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2015, 10:50:31 PM »
Thanks Wade.  That makes sense.  I've never had anyone so technically describe how the sounds come out.  I'm self taught from a long time ago but realized recently there's a lot of sounds I don't know how to accomplish.  Never stop learning!
"Nature is an open book for those who care to read. Each grass-covered hillside is a page on which is written the history of the past, conditions of the present and the predictions for the future." -- J. E. Weaver

Offline Prairie Game Calls

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Re: Calling questions
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2015, 06:52:22 AM »
Listening to all the sound files your short stopping the call/air. Your notes have no finish they just end. If you listen to Wades clip it's like "quaaaaaaaaaack" your notes are like "quak" it sounds like your pinching the air off with your tongue and not finishing the note.

Larry
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Offline Wade@WEBFoot

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Re: Calling questions
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2015, 11:40:04 AM »
Posting this for Stump....   

Jcluesman,
Sounds like (as mentioned above) you are not gating at the start and end of the note.  Youre starting and stopping the air at the source... lungs/diaphragm.  I think youre making progress a bit with air flow, there is an increase in the sound quality on the last one... but its still flat.  But it will take time... so dont get discouraged.

I was helping friend learn to call one time, and we went round and round with everything...  youre not gating, youre using the tip of your tongue, not enough volume of air, too much pressure, too slow air, too fast... and on and on.  And almost every time his response was "I am!" or "I did!".  I bet for weeks we kept butting heads...  Finally, one morning he calls me completely ecstatic.  "LISTEN TO THIS!!!"  and by golly, he had a good quack.  I asked him, "So how'd you figure that out?"  His exact response, "I did what you told me to!".   He said it was the craziest thing... he was driving along practicing in the pickup, and all of a sudden he got one good note.  Took him a minute or two to get to it again, but then he was able to repeat it pretty regularly.  Turns out, for him, it wasnt that he wasnt trying to do what I was explaining, it wasnt that he didnt understand what I was telling him to do... nor that he couldnt do what I was trying to teach him... but he had to train his body understand what it was that his brain was trying to tell it to do.  And the he got there was trying over and over until he got it right accidentally, and then try and zero in on it, and start doing that on purpose.

Think about the air flow/presentation like this... and if you have an air compressor and a few fittings and a ball valve, you can make a perfect example of it so you can see/feel it in real life...

Say you have an air hose, and it has a valve at the outlet end.   You open the end valve, then hold your hand over the end to feel the flow, and then plug in the compressor.  The flow, velocity, and pressure builds up over time until the maximum capacity of the compressor is reached.  Now unplug the compressor and the air flow decreases over time from residual pressure in the tank.    Now shut the valve at the END of the hose.  Open the valve.  Immediate full flow/velocity/pressure.  Shut it, instant off, no ramp up or down in flow.  Now, put your thumb over the end of the hose with the valve on, see how you can manipulate the air?  reduce flow, increase velocity, alter the pressure, fan it out, a little jet stream, etc...  Now we apply that to calling...

Your diaphragm/belly is the compressor. Your lungs are the tank. Your wind pipe is the hose.Your throat is the valve. Your tongue/mouth cavity is the thumb.  In reality, I feel the tongue plays a role in stopping the note, but its combined with gating so its kind of poorly shown in that example.
The start and stop of a note is dependent on the actual air flow starting and stopping.  The quality of the sound produced between the start and the end is reliant on your mouth cavity.  A good note starts and stops abruptly and is completely controlled.  You cant controll the air if its allowed to move freely to equalize pressure.

Listen to your recording again, then listen to the old one I posted and the one of Stumps...  are you getting closer?  One thing I think people do is look at things as a whole, and try and do it all at once...  break it down into parts.  The start of the note, the body of the note, and the end.  Pick one and get it, then the next, then put those two together, then learn the third and put two together, then put all three together.  Right now youre after a specific result, not a "perfect sound".  My techno example is good for gating and starting the note.  Trying to end the note with K or G helps me get a good note finish.  The hard part I think, is the body of the note...  you need to just do a single long note, hold it, and change the variables while holding it, all the while listening for the sound quality you want.  Once you do it once, you know it exists and you can keep chasing it.  Sooner or later, your body will remember what it did to get that note, and you can start replicating it, and start committing it to muscle memory.  (thats why bad habits are so hard to break - they become muscle memory and become "natural")

At the risk of looking like a twit, and for sure sounding like a smurf on helium... here is a link to "The Quack" track on an instructional I did a long long time ago (I bet more than 10 years ago now).  Keep in mind, I have learned much since then, my calls have gotten much better and different, and my calling style/preference has changed because of it.  So what you hear here, I may or may not admit to :P   But you're welcome to laugh and mock it all you want...  I was probably a little over-eager at the time to do an instructional because local people kept asking for one, when I really wasnt ready to do one.  Its about 25 megs and I think 26 min long?, so be aware its a large file.
http://www.webfootcustomcalls.com/soundfiles/thequack.mp3

Cheers
Wade
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Offline jcluesman

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Jeremiah

Offline Prairie Game Calls

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Re: Calling questions
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2015, 05:48:07 PM »
Hey I hear improvement! Your making progress!

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Offline Wade@WEBFoot

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Re: Calling questions
« Reply #41 on: February 27, 2015, 05:56:43 PM »
I think youre making some progress there! (doh Larry, you had faster fingers!)  sounds like you need a touch more air volume which I think will bring the pitch down a little and fill out the sound.  But notice its not as flat sounding as before?  It also has a more discernible start and stop to the note.  I get the feeling either your "hissing" the air a bit tongue position as if you were going "sssssss"  or "ssshhhhhh" - or possibly closing your lips together a touch?  Either brings the air speed up, but lowers volume so you get a bit higher pitch and and quieter.

Keep practicing!  It will come.

You are using a CWF from Stump right? 

Dang if I could get this darn computer to play nice, I could grab the CWF I have here and try and do some examples of various things...  sometimes technology is a pain in my rump...

I can tell you this... if you are blowing a CWF like I think you are... when you get a full on mid register quack... there is such rattle and rasp in that call - you will FEEL it when its right.  Its almost like it rattles your brains.

As you progress, if you havent yet, you might check into the Pro Duck Calling DVD by Carlson.  Jim did a great job with it, and the section on the "9 Mandatorys" will really help to drive home (as well as practice) the basic necessary principles of calling.  To me, I view those 9 mandatorys as more than mandatory...  they help you practice not only what you want, but what you dont want, and if you know how to do something that is not good, you know how to avoid doing it, which is almost more helpful than knowing what youre supposed to do.  That makes sense right? I think? Maybe?


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Offline jcluesman

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Re: Calling questions
« Reply #42 on: February 27, 2015, 06:40:46 PM »
Thanks for the help guys! I was blowing hot air from the lungs. I know to use my diaphragm I just didn't notice I wasn't using it. I'll practice throughout the weekend and post my progress.

I think you're right about the hissing,  ill work on eliminating that.

I am blowing a second hand CWF

I have the Carlson 2 disc set, I've kinda laid off listening to it until I learn to do a basic quack.
Again,  I really appreciate all the help and encouragement  :thanks:
Jeremiah

Offline stumpjumper

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Re: Calling questions
« Reply #43 on: February 27, 2015, 07:25:52 PM »
Much much better.  I hear some structure now.  I do have one question....seeing as that is a second hand CWF,  do you think the reed is to short?  Never know what the guy before you did. 

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Offline jcluesman

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Re: Calling questions
« Reply #44 on: February 27, 2015, 08:01:19 PM »
If someone trimmed it I can't tell.  I've got an inquiry in with the previous owner. Ill see if I can get some info and let you know.
Jeremiah