Author Topic: Jig Wear  (Read 5089 times)

Aaron Vice

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Jig Wear
« on: January 29, 2015, 02:59:24 PM »
Searched for this but didn't see anything on it....

My process...Cut toneboard close to the jig on the bandsaw. Put jig in a vise and file with a mill bastart file until flush. Take out of jig and do final tuning with sandpaper as necesary.

Note...I never sand on the jig, as I have read that this will change it

Can a hardened jig wear out? I'm just curious. Is the jig harder than the file? Should i only file until i get close to the jig, or should I be running metal to metal before I stop filing? This seems to make more sense if consistency is the ultimate goal, but will it eventually mean replacing the jig?

My concern came after i noticed that the sides of my jig are becoming "sharp" and I do not recall this being the case when I started using it.

If you do replace them...how often.

Offline BigB

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Re: Jig Wear
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2015, 04:30:50 PM »


Who made your jig?


Brian
You won't get money rich in this hobby.  The richness is in the culture, the craft, the friends you meet along the way, and being able to call in a wary game animal with a call that you made with your own hands.

 

Aaron Vice

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Re: Jig Wear
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2015, 04:55:01 PM »


Who made your jig?


Brian

Doug @ river mallard

Offline DanHamra

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Re: Jig Wear
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2015, 05:23:25 PM »


Who made your jig?


Brian

I got one from Pintail. I would hope they are using something like A2 or D2 and hardening to at least HRc 60, if not like 63. Do you have any idea who uses what, or how hard the typically heat treat to? I am planning to throw mine on the hardness tester and see where it reads. I can post it up if anyone is interested...

I am curious to know though. I know if you use alumina sandpaper it will absolutely remove metal, infact I use it daily to do just that for metal etching, but depending on how hard the jig is it should dull your file before the file removes much material

Offline David @ Mad Duck Game Calls

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Re: Jig Wear
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2015, 05:30:44 PM »
Dan, be careful with your jig. I got one and the first file I used scratched it bad and would take the corner off in a few swipes. It was one from harbor freight too, so it wasn't that quality.
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Offline CJohnston

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Re: Jig Wear
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2015, 06:27:44 PM »
I wrecked my old jig o I bought a new one. Can someone post a file I should pick up at somewhere like home depot? I was told to only use wood files too
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Offline FDR

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Re: Jig Wear
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2015, 06:28:55 PM »
Good custom knife blades range from RC58 (440C) to RC62 (154CM) after heat treat and a new file will cut those but RC62 is getting very hard to file. The jig should be harder than that or the file will eventually scratch/wear it.  If the jig is too hard it can be brittle and could shatter if dropped.  Fine line on heat treat. The jig blank is/should be first heat treated and then cut to your contour to limit distortion that would occur if the reverse procedure was to be used.

Look here for an answer on the type of file to use.
http://thogamecallsforums.com/index.php/topic,19587.msg147990.html#msg147990
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 08:44:12 PM by FDR »
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Offline Aaron at Wingerts Woodworks

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Re: Jig Wear
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2015, 08:01:12 PM »
My River Mallard jig shows some wear from files.  It is the only jig I've ever owned, and nowadays I just use it to get a cork notch.  I've never sanded on it either, but seriously doubt that the wear is really doing much of anything to change the profile of my jig.  I'd be lying if I said I wasn't concerned back when I was cutting to the profile of the jig.  Only way to know would be to put it up against a new one of the same profile I guess.

Offline BigB

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Re: Jig Wear
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2015, 08:13:23 PM »

I've never heard of any hardness issues with Doug's jigs. The files should dull before the jig does.


Brian
You won't get money rich in this hobby.  The richness is in the culture, the craft, the friends you meet along the way, and being able to call in a wary game animal with a call that you made with your own hands.

 

Offline Jeremy @ Havoc Calls

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Re: Jig Wear
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2015, 08:24:21 PM »
I have a pintail jig from when i first started and about 4 months ago it got to where it wouldnt hold a cork tightly. Now i just compensate by not cutting against the jig on the scroll saw
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Caney Creek Calls

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Re: Jig Wear
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2015, 08:32:21 PM »
I have a couple of the public jig's and one custom jig. The public jigs are a little softer than the custom jig and do show some minor scratches/wear. The custom jig is still rock solid with no scratches and you can definetely tell the difference in the way the file glides across it. But like Aaron said I dont think the scratches in the public jigs really have effected the profile of the jig yet.

Lewis
« Last Edit: January 29, 2015, 09:49:39 PM by Caney Creek Calls »

Offline Jeff @ Mutt Calls

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Re: Jig Wear
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2015, 06:51:18 AM »
I had a jig made by a friend of mine; no idea of the hardness but I know it was hardened. When I cut out a tone board, I purposely try to cut as close to the jig as possible. I'm pretty much running the saw blade right up against the jig with light pressure.  When I am done cutting, I am at the exact profile of the jig.  When I remove the TB from the jig, I use Emory board fingernail files to smooth up. Works perfect for me.  I feel that a cheap saw blade with no pitch has way less effect on the jig than a hardened file.

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Aaron Vice

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Re: Jig Wear
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2015, 08:12:10 AM »
I in no way want this post to lead anyone to think I've had issues with the jig. This wasn't meant as a complaint to Doug or his product. I've probably made close to 75 toneboards on the jig and havent had a real issue.  I was mainly curious as to whether a jig is a one-time purchase, or if they have a shelf life.

Offline BigB

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Re: Jig Wear
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2015, 08:35:08 AM »

A jig should be a one time purchase and not wear out if it was made right.


Brian
You won't get money rich in this hobby.  The richness is in the culture, the craft, the friends you meet along the way, and being able to call in a wary game animal with a call that you made with your own hands.

 

Offline Wade@WEBFoot

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Re: Jig Wear
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2015, 01:09:37 PM »
There are a lot of things at play here...

Material choice:  What material is used for the jig.  Some metals can get harder than others.  Some alloys are more wear resistant than others, even though the hardness is the same.  And many times this has to do with the process used to make the jig or the target cost of the jig.  In addition to that, there is the quality of the alloy used.  A block of metal in the heat treat furnace is no different than a cake in the oven.  What comes out depends on whats inside.  Lower quality (ie cheaper material usually) has a higher probability of content variation.  Just as certified material is notably more expensive.  Its usually a battle to find the best mix of quality and price.

Heat Treating:  Heat treating is just like anything else, sometimes things go wrong, or the timing gets missed, or poor quality material is used which affects the heat treat.  Leave a cake in the oven too long or not long enough, and it may not be a cake.  Use the wrong ingredients and who knows what comes out.  Heat treating is a skill, just like call making.  There is much to learn, equipment, processes, etc...  A good heat treater is worth double the cost of a bad one... at least in my eyes.

Tempering:  Heat treating is a two part deal...  bring it up to the specified temp, for specified time in relation to thickness, and cool per requirements of the material.  Then, its time for tempering.  Bring up to temp (usually much lower than the initial temp), again, for a specified time in relation to thickness, and let cool.   The first process brings the material to max hardness.  The second, actually makes the material softer.  Harder = brittle and Softer = durable.  To hard, and it could break if dropped.  Too soft, and well... you can file it.

Jigs:  There is a balance that has to be kept with the making of the jig.  It has to be hard so that it lasts.  It has to be durable, so it wont break in to pieces the first time it gets dropped.  And it has to be affordable.  Add in the variable hardness of files, people using abrasives on the jig, and it turns into quite the battle to come up with a long lasting high quality jig, that is affordable.

Files:  From what I have learned over the years...  one can expect a good quality file to be in the 55 HRc range (aka Rockwell hardness scale) - which is right on the edge for some jig materials.  The cheaper files, including ones with a good name, but manufactured elsewhere for cost savings - I have seen many instances where people are reporting them to be either softer and dull more easily - or in the case of some Chinese (only ones Ive seen specific info on - but would guess its not just those) files HARDER than expected and also more brittle - up in the mid 60s HRc... which is as hard or a touch harder than most, if not all jigs.  But the wear caused by a file being equal hardness as the jig is pretty minimal so that at least helps maintain the life span of the jig to some degree.

I would estimate a properly made jig (material, heat treat, tempering) that one could very well expect it to last easily for 10's of thousands of calls.  But, that does have to account for proper use.  Im sure there is a "shelf life" just because of physics (friction and wear) but would guess that its long enough that a properly heated jig and files would last a lifetime to two - even with pretty heavy use.

If youre concerned about the life span of your jig, knowing that the hardness of files is an additional variable, I would try each file on an unimportant area of the jig with every file you plan to use on the jig, if the file skates along the surface, its okay.  If it feels like it grabs in the slightest or removes material, I would set that one aside and not use it on the jig - just use it for hand tuning.

Ive found with the nicholson files Ive used...  you can get about 10 calls per file before the file is annoyingly dull.  Might be another variable to help identify if the file is harder or softer than it should be.

Keep in mind, on my jigs, since they are cut after heat treat, the EDM leaves an recast layer of the eroded material from the cut on the surface - the dark area on the surface of the profile of the jigs when you get a new one - that will be easily removed and is about .0002-.0003" thick.  That is normal, once that is removed, the file should skate right along the surface.  I would imagine on the jigs that are cut prior to heat treat (which I think are most if not all the jigs that are made in two pieces) that there will be a slight discoloration that will "polish off" with use that came from the heat treating process.  But if you can knock a corner off the edge of a jig with a file, then it might be worth looking into the file or the jig.

Wade
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