Some More Help

[AS@Smith Crafters]

I have started making ZA style duck calls. I am getting co sistent results with the the sounds of my tone boards0. So honestly all is good. Now I was hoping for some more PRO tips. I wanted to know if there was a good way to market the calls. I only have word of mouth right now, and I haven't SOLD a single gle call yet. Idk ifI have the wrong crowd, orwhat. They sound amazimg, I've been told over and over, but most of the people have either quit duck hunting, or don't have the cash. I traded two calls to fix the AC in my truck, which I believe is a far deal, but still... No sales yet :(

Another thing is, HOW IN THE HELL are you all using metal inserts? I have no clue, and am not finding any help on the forum thus far.

Are there any prefered toneboard materials? I near cherry is great, but idk yet.

Any little tips would help. I make them, but I'm not and expert yet. I love to try new things, but after several failed attempts at Arkansas style calls,I'm sticking to Louisiana.

[Wade@WEBFoot]

What is a ZA style duck call?

Remember, in selling calls... what you think really doesnt matter, its what the potential customer thinks...  So you either have to make what they want, or make what you want and hope someone wants to buy it.  One, your going after, the other, youre waiting for.

On selling calls...
How would you go to find a call company you heard about somewhere?
Where would you go to find a new call company you had not heard about?
Whats something most call companies have these days that you dont?
Is there some place people go to talk about hunting stuff where you might be able advertize?  Or a place to post pictures and show things to friends that is free?
Does this forum have any classifieds or features that might help a call maker sell calls?  Do other forums?
Where do people go to buy calls?
How do other people market calls?  Forum advertizing? Posts? give aways to get people talking? Magic wand?

Now... a few thoughts...  not trying to be a schmuck... just honest - based on things I have seen and heard over the years.

Compliments are free, buying a call is not.  Im reminded of the phrase "money talks, and BS walks".  I have found actions speak louder than words.  If someone wont put their money where their mouth is, just exactly how honest are they being?  Friends and family are not always impartial.

Word of mouth comes from getting calls out there, if people aint buying, maybe you need to give some away?  Or is the lack of sales a form of feedback?

Sometimes the best indicator that you should start selling something you make, is when people start saying "Ill give you $X for that call".

I dont know your calls (other than a few pics) and have not heard any sound files, and to me, hearing how well you can operate your call will tell me if Id even be interested in trying one, let alone buying one (to me, if you cant run one, how can you build one?).  As a call maker, I can see (from the pics on the other thread) it would not be a call I would be interested in (both aesthetically and tone board).  Just being honest here, not bagging on ya or anything.

Metal inserts?  you mean guts?  AR style Kegs? Sleeves? Oring adapters/Gutserts?  You say "you all" as though most people are using them... but metal parts, shy of sleeves and ORAs (oring adapters)/Gutserts are not very common.  If youre meaning sleeves or ORAs/Gutserts... they are probably used like the plastic ones... glued in.

Tone board materials - lots of preference out there.  I believe if you search, youll find this topic somewhat common.

AR style boards, if youre not attempting those anymore, my gut tells me you dont know enough about sound boards in general, that you might want to think about learning more before you jump on the "marketing bandwagon".  Not to mention, tone board materials.  Many times, you are remembered for your first impression...  And I think way too many people are way too quick to "Get to market" because they are excited.  How do you think it looks when a prospective customer says, "can you make it louder" and you have to answer, "I dont know how yet".

Also remember, when it becomes a money making endeavor - you got fun things to deal with, like taxes, licenses, etc...  mind your Ps and Qs there... The gooberment doesnt take "uh - I didnt know I had to" as an excuse.

Maybe Im a "north end of a south bound horse", maybe its "tough love", but what ever it is, Im being honest and not candy coating stuff to avoid confusion.  Im not saying you shouldnt make calls, or maybe even some day sell them...  just go into it  eyes wide open, ears wide open, and take advantage of anything and everything you learn along the way.

Cheers
Wade

[AS@Smith Crafters]

I meant LA. I must have clicked an auto correct button... woops

[AS@Smith Crafters]

With the metal bands, I mean this. I've seen some calls with multiple woods, in one piece (example the barrel) and between the two wood pieces, is a metal band, or insert. Idk how to explain it better... can't find the words.

[AS@Smith Crafters]

I have said this several times. I am only 17. I know how to run the lathe pretty well. U started knowing nothing. I read a bit, and jumped into it. I get the fact that you're not sugar coating anything, but I have learned some things. I can make it louder, I can make it quieter, I can make it raspier. I can make it smaller, and I can make it bigger. To me the idea of an Arkansas style tone board is dumb. I don't have the tools to ensure myself that I will make a good toneboard everytime, and I don't want to throw away a good exhaust when I mess up the toneboard. LA gives me that option. Mess it up, throw it away. Want a different sound, withouth a different call, switch it out. The possibility with the LA style are greater I think.

Your story was great tho. An 11 year old kid who made a duck call on a drill oress, before u knew what you were doing. Then went bought a lathe. I was 14 and bought a lathe to turn pens on. After awhile, I started buying some reed inserts. But that is cheating (my opinion) I wanted to make my own toneboard. So I did. It failed. I did again. It failed again. Third time was close, but fourth was amazing. I started making them left and right. Or so it felt like. Its only been a month, but I have 20 some calls made. It feels amazing. I look up and see 20 duck calls made by own hands, and very little help. I have got it down mostly. I just want those little tips about how to make them better. It's not so much to make as much money as I can, it's more to make myself proud. Is it wrong to be proud of yourself? As long as it doesn't go to your head  too much.

[dogcatcher]

With the metal bands, I mean this. I've seen some calls with multiple woods, in one piece (example the barrel) and between the two wood pieces, is a metal band, or insert. Idk how to explain it better... can't find the words.

I believe you are talking about laminating, most of us laminate using tenons between the various pieces of wood, acrylic, metal and antler or horn.  Search tenon and laminate, somebody made a tutorial on how they do it, but cannot remember who it was made it.

Marvin

[BigB]

They sound amazimg, I've been told over and over,

If you want to know how they really sound and compare to other calls, then send one to Reelfoot in October for the call makers contest. I am headed to the show, and will enter the call for you if you'd like.  And I'll mail it back to you after the show.

Another thing is, HOW IN THE HELL are you all using metal inserts? I have no clue, and am not finding any help on the forum thus far.
Are there any prefered toneboard materials? I hear cherry is great, but idk yet.
Any little tips would help.

To me the idea of an Arkansas style tone board is dumb.

This is the friendliest forum out there for making calls.  Nobody on this forum HAS to help you, and your attitude will dictate how much help you will get.  Insulting a bunch of folks that you are wanting to spoon feed you information probably won't get you much help at all.  The majority of the folks here will give you help with some things when they see that you are struggling with something, especially if you have put in some effort to figure it out.  Nobody is going to spoon feed you information, even if you are 17.  Folks have spent years and years in the shop to figure things out on their own.  Why do you just expect them to fork out some information to someone that doesn't show any effort and commands everyone to just give it to me, me, me.  I've seen folks go to great lengths on here to help someone out.  If you aren't getting help, then I'd look pretty close at something to see why.


Brian
 

[Wade@WEBFoot]

Gotcha, auto correct... gets stuff ya dont want, and misses a lot of stuff ya did want it to corrrect... I know how that is.

On the "bands" I think youre talking about...  One of two things, a solder inlay, or a captured band (which is laminating in a way)
Here is a tutorial that will explain how to do either... might have to adapt your thinking for the captured band but should give you an idea.
http://thogamecallsforums.com/index.php/topic,7789.0.html

I know youre 17, youve said it several times (almost like its an excuse?).  Age doesnt make a difference in the end product, but makes a world of difference in the process to get there.  But being young does give you the lack of experience badge.  I had it too :D  Heck I still have it - just different things these days...  Im just mentioning things for you to think about... you dont have to listen to a word I say/type. 

Being proud of what you do, and selling it are two different things.  You dont have to sell anything to be proud of it.  And you dont have to be proud of something to sell it.  Your motivation behind your actions will show through when you least expect it, so be true to yourself and what youre doing.

You dont have to justify anything to me, or anyone else...  you do what you wanna do... you wanna sell calls, go for it.  I know it feels great to sell one, or have someone ask you to make them one even though you didnt make calls to sell because they saw one and wanted one... been there.  Just offering food for thought from someone who started young, sold a few calls here and there, and has the benefit of 30 year old hind sight.  My calls then, werent what I thought they were.  My calls 10 years ago, werent all that I thought they were then either....  and in 20 years, Ill probably think the same about my calls now.  Im still learning about sound boards...  so I cant wait to hear what I learn next.

Tips for making them better...

- Become a better caller... that in itself will do wonders.  Practice, listen to instructional tapes/videos/dvds, live ducks in the park and imitate them, etc... and practice. (I dont know your current skill level, but I have never met anyone that couldnt improve on something about their calling or gain a skill they didnt have)

- Experiment... You gotta break some eggs to make an omelet.  The more things you know DONT work, that many more things you can avoid doing in the future when chasing things that DO work.  Take lots of notes and pictures and sound recordings.

- Record yourself, and listen to it analytically and critically.  Share it with others, and get honest and usable constructive criticism.  A place like this forum is a great place to that.

- Send a call to a known good caller and have them evaluate it, maybe even make a sound file for you.

- Identify your goals and work towards them.  What you want your calls to sound like, what you want YOU to sound like blowing a call, how you want them to operate, volume, how good you want to be on a call, and so on.

- And most importantly - have a good time with it!  It makes it easier to learn when your excited and having fun!

A couple observations... do with as you please...
If at 4 tone boards - things got "amazing" and 20 calls you pretty much got it, I would question your calling ability.  Might be worth comparing your call to a known good call - an echo poly would suffice.  Not saying you have to get better at calling... but it will affect how others might try to help and their advise.  So if we know your ability and if you think your ability is good enough, then we sort of know "when to stop".

Poking at people and styles of calls might not help you get more help...  But even those that are willing to help, might want to see that you know how to use the search button and have done some reading on your own already.

I know you think you got it...  but only experience is going to prove if you do or not.

Cheers
Wade

[Rick Howard]

First let me say I know squat about duck calling.  I'm also a relatively new call maker.

Getting to hang with another call maker will be helpful.  If there is someone local you should seek them out.  I often invite people into my shop and show them what I do.  If someone asks ... I am even more willing.  To me, and many others, call making is about sharing a tradition as much as anything.  Though I won't spoon feed information I will help someone find their way as others have done (and do) for me.  The more someone tries the more willing I am to share things I've learned.

Also Ask call makers via the web of if you can send them a call for their critique.  I have done this many times.  I still do.  I feel privileged when they will take them time.

A few things to keep in mind about advise from others.  Their opinion is a chance to learn.  However, someone may misunderstand a concept your trying to achieve or their style is far different from yours.  Your call is yours.  You need to like the sound and the way it runs.   Second, make sure you understand what they are saying about your call.  Understand the perceived flaws are in your call (not you).  Third is most important, remember you asked them. 

Keep making calls and keep trying different things.  Your calls will get better naturally.  I don't believe there is a magic number of attempts.  Everyone is different in their learning curve.  But if you keep trying new things, you will keep getting better.  It's the only way. 

[Jeff @ Mutt Calls]

Everything Brian & Wade said. EVERYTHING!  AS Smith, without knowing anything about you since you are relatively new to the forum, your post' come across "loose".  Your questions are vague and appear to be "all over the road".  You need to help yourself before anyone here can. Take some more time and read through this university which is the forum. Look and read on the many professors and students within this university. Learn terminology. Know what parts and pieces are called prior to asking vague questions. Wade and Brian both gave you valuable information; none of which was required. I would strongly suggest to you to re-read what Brian and Wade wrote. Their replies to you are slathered with wisdom and experience.  How this wisdom and experience is received and applied by you is all up to you.

Best of luck to you.

Jeff

[RVivian]

Wade that was an excellent post with much vital info for thought and Brian, your post was also noteworthy.   Treasured information for anyone getting into call making.

Ray

[R.FINCHUM]

I hope one more post isnt piling on. But I went to your home page and the first thing I saw was this,I'm just a 17 yr old kid. So what. I'm just a 60 yr old man. I was hit by a drunk driver and had to have hip and knee replacements. My spine is screwed up so bad I had to have 27 injections and procedures. The surgeon got my left leg 1 1/2 inches shorter than my right and my right knee has had 4 reconstructive surgeries. Cracked shoulder blade on my gunning shoulder blade,200 pain pills a month and celebrex everyday for arthritis that is developing everywhere, blah, blah, blah.  Point is....so what. You're 17. Congrats on making it that long. Everyone on here has things all the time we all are proud of or need to pray about. I know what you are saying, ''I bought my own lathe and started doing this stuff on my very own at only 17''. But it comes across like everyone owes me something cause I did this at only 17. We have a kid on here thats 13. And he makes some really good calls. I saw his pic with a deer and thought wow, he sure looks young. As a call maker I am proud he chose this site to talk and share with us. And he comes on here with sage sounding advice and intelligent questions, well most times.lol When I get to hurting pretty bad standing at the lathe or come across something I dont know or forgot, which is more and more often, I come in, sit at the computer and read. type in what it is and read what these great guys had to say. And I have never had a question that wasnt answered here. Somebody has run across everything I have at some point and has taken the time to share so we dont have to waste time and valuable product learning how its done. So since your age is there already, you dont need to bring it up from time to time. I have worn out the search button because its so easy to do. Brian Byers is a wealth of knowledge about carved calls. He has looked at my wife and my carvings and critiqued them to a fault. And told us what was right as well as wrong and then took time to enter them in call contests and got Jim Dester, the father of carved calls to look them over and let us know what hr thought. Wade has answered questions I have asked him way beyond the answer. Aaron Wingert didnt just answer how to make his beautiful whistles. He put a cad looking diagram, and used a valuable piece of wood to demonstrate. He also made a great tutorial about ca finishing and did it in detail. the piece i saw here about laminating wood and acrylic has been on here for a while. Just look it up. Ron Gould, Ryan at Pintail, and on and on. Checkering, carving, etc. and its all free. But boy do they hate a smart butt. and laziness on behalf of a call maker. I read their responses sometimes and think , ouch. That hurt. but if you will listen you can be a heck of a call maker with about a thousand  yrs. of experience to draw on here. Good luck and enjoy more than anything else. Lifes too short to go through in a hurry.

[Jeff @ Mutt Calls]

Brian Byers is a wealth of knowledge about carved calls. He has looked at my wife and my carvings and critiqued them to a fault.
Brian, will you come critique my wife? She won't listen to nor believe me! 

Finch, sorry man. I couldn't let that one go by. Good post as well!

Jeff

[Prairie Game Calls]

    

Larry

[COsby]

I know where you're coming from AS and can relate to the position you're in. I'm very new to this world of making calls also.

Here are my thoughts on a few things:

1. I'm a new duck hunter, and even newer "call maker" (I tread lightly there as I don't feel I have earned the right for that title, but use it to make the point).

2. I am not an expert caller. I can make a quack, feed call, comeback... but is it a good seasoned tone... not at all. I REALLY don't want to post sound files yet because of this.

3. I have realistic expectations. This is where you need to be. I know at 17 it's hard. Look at the guys that have mouth dropping calls in here. They aren't spring chickens (no offense guys).

So, what can be done to overcome some of this...
1. Keep gaining experience. Much like Wade said, take every opportunity to listen, experiment, read, listen, watch, listen, experiment... Experience is everything in this. Boots on the ground, hands on the tools.

2. Like stated earlier, until I can get to the "Caller: Level expert", I need to get these in the hands of people who are. I have a good buddy who's been duck hunting for years and years. He's had all kinds of calls  and is proficient with them. Not only that, he'll tell me what needs to improve.
   Also, like stated above, send some out with return postage to guys on here that are good.

3. This is difficult. It's clear you're wanting to get calls sold. Start turning a profit. This brings a whole new level of responsibility on your part. I have no desire to actually sell a call for the next 10 years or so. Wooden calls split, bands come off, calls lock up... then I have a call that I have taken money for, in the field, that doesn't work. Are you ready to deal with customers that have issues? Do you have a plan for a call that quits working? People give up their hard earned money for these, they have expectations. Until I have fully comfortable knowing what I am sending to the field is a good, reliable product that will have minimal issues. If you send out a bunch of calls that break, and you've already used that money for something else, will you be able to refund the money out of pocket? You have to take these things into consideration.

My plan... get calls out there... get them to my friends, use them myself, give them to their friends... send them to members on here... get as much feedback as possible. Document everything. Take notes on each call before you send it out. Anything you did differently or the same. When you get feedback, get the call and make an adjustment, document what you did, send it back out. Look through all your records for consistencies...

Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think you're ready to be sending calls to customers at this point (I'm not either). It would be irresponsible and there are too many unknowns that only experience can overcome.

By the time you're ready to send calls out for profit, most likely you'll have people who already know of your calls and would be willing to purchase just by your testing.