Author Topic: Insert jig  (Read 21265 times)

Offline DanNolen

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Insert jig
« on: January 14, 2014, 04:16:55 PM »
Hey guys, i am just getting started in call making, getting all my ducks in a row. Ive turned some barrels down, and i would like to make my own inserts to be able to use, with my own style on the tone board, ( no offense to those who use the echo inserts, and i do love echo calls) but to me thats not a true custom call. My question is, how do i begin with getting my arkansas style insert shaped with the cork insert and all, i see this public jigs and what not , do they just get you close enough to modify yourself? Is there any other way to get a good true soundboard without me having to buy a $100 jig ? Then after i get my desired sound then i would send the insert off to have a jig made from it correct? And i know i will have to turn many an insert and try different techniques and have a large teash can nearby, so im not askin anyone to cut corners for me, i just need more less a starting point, can i make my own jig, do i buy a public jig and modify from there, is there such a thing as going no jig??? Again thanks for the help
God Bless, Pastor Dan

Offline dogcatcher

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Re: Insert jig
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2014, 04:36:17 PM »
You can make your own, these are 2 that I made.  Bothe are predator toneboards but with the exception of a cork slot the same thing.





Marvin
 
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Offline DanNolen

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Re: Insert jig
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2014, 04:42:55 PM »
Thanks again Marvin!
God Bless, Pastor Dan

Offline James Strickland

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Re: Insert jig
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2014, 05:25:21 PM »
I started making my inserts by hand with no jig at all.  I'd turn the insert and then cut the toneboard by hand.  I went through several inserts until I finally got a sound that I wanted to duplicate.  Then I made a wooden jig out of walnut so I could duplicate the length and curve of the toneboard.  Now I put my turned insert in the jig and trace my toneboard, mark where I want my cork notch to be and then cut it on the bandsaw.  I wanted to be completely custom with my calls from day one and felt that making my own jig was the way to go.  Eventually I'll get a jig made that has the cork notch built in, etc.  I don't have a pic of my jig handy but could post one if you're interested.

Offline Wade@WEBFoot

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Re: Insert jig
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2014, 05:52:00 PM »
Sure you can do it with no jig!  Thats how I started.  Hack saw, vise, files, and sand paper.

Sure jigs make it easier to get a starting point... in some cases the focus of a jig is a good repeatable cork notch and a flat surface... others gets you to a starting point - something that makes noise... and you work from there.

I think one learns the most from going the "long hand" method... vise and saw type method...  But you learn nearly as much, and have some help with a flat jig, so that you get a good repeatable cork notch...  but thats more about efficiency I think than anything.

I would say one thing... whether you go with a jig or the vise and saw and file method...   and wish I had though about it when I was starting out...  Get some 5/8" dowels or some sticks of 5/8" acetal/delrin...  dont worry about turning and finishing when youre trying to learn tone boards... especially if your end goal is to get a custom jig anyway...   When I started... it was going through the hole process... turn the keg, sand it, finish it, drill it... then ruin it... lather, rinse, repeat...

I spent so much time getting something ready to ruin, that when it didnt go well... it wasnt just the time spent ruining it, but the time building it too... and wasting the good wood, good finish, etc...   Knowing what I know now... Id start with some acetal rod from where ever (enco, midland, most any online plastic supplier)... cut a stick into the lengths you want your keg to be... get a collet chuck and a drill chuck, and drill em all the same, and go to town...  Now you wont have wasted a day turning something and finishing it... just to make fire wood.  And since its just plastic rod, the vise wont hurt it, cause the vise marks wont matter anyway...   then when youre able to get some regular success... thats when Id start playing with the "good stuff".  And when you get that perfect one... thats what you send in for a jig to be made from. :D

If your goal is to get a jig made... spend an inordinate amount of time focusing on a symmetrical, level, even tone board.  Since jigs cant be made to give you an uneven surface (side to side symmetry) the further from symmetrical your prototype is, the further from perfect your jig will turn out.  So its good to keep that in mind when youre designing...   Sort of a case of keeping the end goal in mind when youre doing your first R&D.  It will make the result that much sweeter because you avoided a pitfall from the very start.

I also think there is a surprising amount of "decent sound" that comes from a tone board that has symmetrical sides.  Sure the profile is HUGELY important...  but I feel that a good tone board that has some variation from side to side, will not sound as good as one that is more symmetrical.  But thats just a feeling I get from things I have seen over the years...  not to be taken as gospel.  :D

Most importantly though...  have fun!

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Offline DanNolen

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Re: Insert jig
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2014, 06:15:49 PM »
Jms trick i would be very interested in seeing your jig if you get around to it
God Bless, Pastor Dan

Offline DanNolen

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Re: Insert jig
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2014, 06:24:20 PM »
Thanks Wade, good idea with the dowels! Is there any guidelines to go by, like i know with the turkey pots guys have ( to a degree ) certain measurements between point A and B so on so forth. So i was wondering like tone channel depth, and distance of flat toneboard until the curve begins, etc...Like what makes an open water call different from a timber call , as far as the tone board and insert is concerned? Or is this just try it till ya get it type of thing?
God Bless, Pastor Dan

Offline BigB

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Re: Insert jig
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2014, 07:05:05 PM »


Here's a great video on how to make toneboards without a jig.  And John Spots makes really good sounding calls.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Art-of-Making-A-DUCK-CALL-John-Spotts-Style-DVD-/111254969951?pt=US_Game_Calls&hash=item19e7501e5f


Here's some excellent tutorials on things to do when starting to make toneboards:
http://thogamecallsforums.com/index.php/topic,17997.0.html
http://thogamecallsforums.com/index.php/topic,15814.0.html


It's my opinion, that if you've never made a toneboard before, it's going to be a really, really, really rough road without a public jig to start with.  The biggest key factor on toneboards are the curvature of the board and where that intersects with the end of the tone channel.  A person can waste a lot of wood trying to figure out that curvature of the toneboard on their own.  If I didn't have a public jig starting out, I would have thrown in the towel and given up if I would have tried to figure out that curvature without a jig. 

And there are lots of threads on here debating the flat jig vs a public jig starting out.  A flat jig will give you a good cork notch, and allow you to modify the toneboard curvature as you see fit.  A public jig will give you a good cork notch and a consistent curvature, and allows you to figure out the tonechannel depth and learn how that affects how a call is operated. 


Brian
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Offline Wade@WEBFoot

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Re: Insert jig
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2014, 08:01:13 PM »
Thanks Wade, good idea with the dowels! Is there any guidelines to go by, like i know with the turkey pots guys have ( to a degree ) certain measurements between point A and B so on so forth. So i was wondering like tone channel depth, and distance of flat toneboard until the curve begins, etc...Like what makes an open water call different from a timber call , as far as the tone board and insert is concerned? Or is this just try it till ya get it type of thing?

Like BigB said... there are tons of discussions about flat jig - public jig - no jig - wood jig etc...  And I think in the end... it really has more to do with luck and perseverance.  The luck comes in to play in terms of getting enough progress to keep you motivated to improve it.  The perseverance comes in when you havent gotten lucky yet.  :D  A jig helps get some of that need for luck or perseverance out of the way. 

There arent a lot of things that fall into "guidelines" to follow when youre first starting out - because it seems like everything effects everything else.  Tone channel depth, back bore depth and size, profile of the board, drill point angle, cork fit, reed length and width, dog ears, no dog ears and on and on.

Overall the few things that I can think of that do sort of fall into the category of "guide lines" that I might suggest for someone starting out would be:

Keg length - over all length of the keg (insert/stopper/what ever you want to call it):  I would say for starting out... no shorter than 3.5" and no longer than 4"

Tone channel diameter:  15/64 or 1/4" - sure you can play later... but better to have a feel for whats going on with other things and then tinker with TC dia.

Tone channel depth:  likely will end up somewhere between .3" and .5" from the end of the keg tenon.  Sure you can go all over the place, and the profile will have a huge effect on where the tone channel needs to end.  But that range seems to be where most end up.  Longer if the tone board comes to point at the end, and shorter if the tone board has a squared end.

Overall length of the tone board (end of the tone board to the back of the cork notch):  Some where between 1.65" and 1.85" - again, this is a moving target... but somewhere in the middle would be a good place to start looking I would think.

Reed length and width:  Again... all over the place, but if you start out between .500 and .575 wide you should be in a good area.  Length of the reed is something that really depends on the profile of the board.  But I would typically say that the end of the reed will extend past the tip of the tone channel between .125" and .200" - out side of that I think youll end up either very high pitched with no low end, or too low of a low and and no top end at all.

Upslope reed design vs Parallel reed design:  Id say this one is more about preference, but generally one will find an upslope design on the meat stage, and a parallel on the main street stage.  But youll find both in the field.  I find it easier to get louder and more clear sounds from a parallel design, and more rasp and nasal sounds from an upslope.

Back bore:  This is all over the map - sometimes it helps a call run better, other times it just changes the air requirements and volume and is basically dependent on the board profile.  A good starting point would be one of the step bits, and go in to the 3/8 or 7/16 step as a starting point.

From there... I think many here will agree... Take notes!  Youre going to try tons of things... and remembering it all will be nearly impossible.  Notes and drawing out pictures and writting down measurements will really help!

Probably not all the answers you were hoping for, or as specific as yould like... but its really not possible to get much more specific on guidelines for something like this.

Hopefully you have a good time doing what ever you do, how ever you do it though... that is the important part.  Cause as soon as you have fun doing it... then youre addicted and its all over for you :D hehehehe.

Cheers
Wade

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Offline DanNolen

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Re: Insert jig
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2014, 08:16:40 PM »
Thanks wade! That was alot of info i appreciate it, very much
God Bless, Pastor Dan

Offline VECtor Calls

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Re: Insert jig
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2014, 11:23:40 PM »
I have that Spotts video, and I really enjoy it.

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Offline dogcatcher

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Re: Insert jig
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2014, 12:04:49 AM »
I have that Spotts video, and I really enjoy it.

Vince

I received his video for Christmas a few years ago.  I bet I have watched it 10 times, he the method down to a science.

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Offline DanNolen

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Re: Insert jig
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2014, 08:21:40 AM »
awesome, i will look into getting that
God Bless, Pastor Dan

Offline Joe Short

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Re: Insert jig
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2014, 01:34:43 PM »
I think Wade and Bryan nailed it here. It will take a lot of wood (or whatever material you are using) to get a good sounding board without a public jig, BUT... it's doable, and you'll learn a lot more about what affects what by making your own wooden jig. I've made all of my jigs from hard maple, and still use one of my firsts for almost all of my calls. If you want to go the route of buying one, the trend here is that Wade @ Webfoot has about the best you can buy, and from personal experience I can tell you that he's a standup guy who believes in the products he sells.
"We have a lot of great call makers in NC. Maybe more call makers than ducks." - JCZ

Offline Ron Davis

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Re: Insert jig
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2014, 11:20:41 AM »
Dan what Wade and BigB said here is spot on. Lots of great info. Digest well and read through those links BigB posted.

Here is some pictures from the day I started making Tone boards. Dowle rods and files. with a flat Jig i made and I am still using.
Good luck Have fun, it is rewarding. Next fall you using your own call. Ducks cupped and commited and  :hunter1:  :hunter1:  Good eatin. Lots of pride. That will be a good day, I promise.  :bigup:

The education


The top 3 rated 1 - 3  top is the best


Cut reed and cork


The finished one



My jig

Ron