Author Topic: Discussion on vacuum pumps for stabilizing  (Read 17300 times)

Offline TurnTex

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Discussion on vacuum pumps for stabilizing
« on: February 01, 2012, 09:24:28 PM »
I thought I would start a new topic regarding vacuum pumps for stabilizing.  Vacuum is a unique animal of its own!  Unlike pressure which is infinite with the right equipment, vacuum is limited.  The definition of a perfect vacuum is the absence of all molecules.  It is impossible to achieve perfect vacuum, even in the best laboratory settings or outer space.  However, in a lab, they can get really darn close and in our shops, we can actually do a pretty darn good job with the right pump.

There are 3 main types of pumps readily available; rotary vane, diaphragm, and venturi.  A rotary vane pump is one that uses oil.  A diaphragm pump in simplistic terms is an air compressor running the other direction and does not require oil.  A venturi pump is one that connects to your air hose to create the vacuum.  Diaphragm pumps typically will not generate a really deep vacuum.  Venturi pumps generate a great vacuum but they require a fairly large compressor to keep up and they are noisy.

From my experience, the best bang for the buck to achieve the best vacuum is to use a rotary vane vacuum pump.  This is the type of pump used by HVAC and Refrigeration guys.  You can go cheap and get one at Harbor Freight on sale for less than $100 or you can go good and pick up an American made pump new for around $300.  However, you can also keep your eye on your local pawn shop and frequently find good quality, American made pumps for around $100.  I picked up a JB Eliminator pump at my local pawn shop in really good condition for $120.  It is an excellent pump.

When you are looking for a pump, don't be too concerned about CFM (cubic feet per minute) if you are only planning to do stabilizing.  Higher CFM will not create more vacuum.  Remember, vacuum is finite and limited.  A high CFM pump will just remove the air and get to deep vacuum quicker than a low CFM pump.  However, in the hobby setting, the size chambers we are using typically have less than 1 cubic foot of air in them so the difference in time to deep vacuum with a low CFM and high CFM pump is hardly worth the extra money.  We are talking less than a minute difference!

What you want to look for is the vacuum rating.  Most diaphragm and venturi pumps will list the maximum vacuum in Inches of Mercury abbreviated as In Hg.  The higher the number, the better the vacuum.  Remember, a perfect vacuum is 29.92" Hg at sea level so if your pump is rated at 29" Hg, it is a good, deep vacuum.  Rotary vane pumps are frequently rated in microns and or In Hg.  With microns, the lower the number the better.  Atmospheric pressure at sea level is 760,000 microns.  A perfect vacuum is 0 microns.  A good pump for stabilizing will be 100 microns or less.  My JB pump is rated at 25 microns.  To compare to In Hg, 100 microns is the same as 29.916" Hg.  10 microns is equal to 29.9196" Hg.

Hopefully this sheds a little light on vacuum pumps and will help some folks better understand the difference in pumps and their ratings!  Let me know if you have any questions.
Curtis O. Seebeck
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MesquiteMan's Cactus Juice stabilizing resin

Offline Aaron at Wingerts Woodworks

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Re: Discussion on vacuum pumps for stabilizing
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2012, 09:28:35 PM »
Darn good write-up Curtis.  Thanks for taking the time.  I basically know that vacuum is necessary to suck the stabilizing juice into the wood more or less, but how do the numbers equate to the end product produced? 

Offline TurnTex

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Re: Discussion on vacuum pumps for stabilizing
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2012, 10:01:58 PM »
Here are the results of a test I recently did.  I posted this over at penturners.org and am just gong to do a copy and past here instead of re-typing!  This does not directly answer your question but does show the difference between vacuum, pressure, and just soaking.

I recently decided to do some testing to see what kind of stabilizing results one could obtain without using vacuum. This test was performed with a thermosetting professional stabilizing resin. I started with 30 1" x 1" x 5-1/4" spalted pecan pen blanks that were air dried. I then placed them in my toaster oven at 200° F for 24 hours to make sure they were as dry as possible. I recorded the weight in grams of each blank before and after placing in the toaster oven and amazingly, from air dry to oven dry, they lost an average of 16% weight! Since weight equals water in this instance, and water occupies cellular space that could be occupied by the resin, it is safe to say that it is a really good practice to oven dry your blanks before stabilizing!

After cooling down to room temperature, I sorted them in groups based on weight and then choose 3 blanks from 4 different groups of weight sorted blanks to create 3 sets of 4 blanks with similar weight distributions between each group.

The first set of 4 blanks were placed in a chamber and weighted down. I then added the stabilizing resin to submerge the blanks and set them aside to soak. I allowed them to soak for 24 hours.

The second set of blanks were placed in a chamber, weighted down, and submerged in the stabilizing resin. This chamber was then placed in my pressure pot and pressurized to 70 psi. I allowed these blanks to remain at 70 psi for 24 hours. The pressure was then released and the blanks were allowed to soak for 1 hour with no pressure.

The final set of blanks were placed in a chamber, weighted down, and submerged in the stabilizing resin. This chamber was then connected to a vacuum pump and pulled down to a 99% vacuum until the bubbles stopped coming out of the blanks. The vacuum was then released and the blanks were allowed to soak for 30 minutes.

After their respective cycles, each blank was removed from the chamber/resin and allowed to drain for 30 minutes. After draining, each blank was wrapped in foil and cured in a pre-heated 200° F toaster oven for 2 hours. Once cured, the blanks were unwrapped and allowed to cool. The excess material that had polymerized on the outside of the blank was scrapped off, being careful to not remove any of the wood. All 16 blanks were then weighed and recorded.

The weight results from each blank were then input into an Excel spreadsheet and the differences and % were calculated as well as an average for each set of blanks. The results are shown on the graphs below.



This is the average weight gain from raw to finished blank as a % for each group



One thing that I found very interesting is what happened to the blanks that were placed under pressure. After removing from the pressure and allowing to soak, they continued to bubble for an hour. To me, this proves the principle that pressure may indeed push the resin into the blank by compressing the air inside the blank but once the pressure is removed, the air inside the blank expands and pushes some of the resin back out of the blank. The pressure treated blanks also had the highest amount of cured resin on the outside of the blanks by far which shows that the pressure continued to push the resin out while curing.

These pics are NOT under vacuum!





When curing all blanks, some of the resin is going to leak out and polymerize on the outside. For this test, I also recorded the weight right before curing as well as after. The soaked and pressurized blanks lost a significant higher % of their weight after curing. To me, this shows that with vacuum, the atmospheric pressure is keeping more of the resin in the blank.

Here is a chart with the average % weight loss for each group between their respective cycle and cured.


So, based on this testing, I would have to say that yes, you can stabilize blanks by just soaking or with pressure but will get a higher concentration of resin inside the blank, and thus a better stabilized blank if you use vacuum.

Note: This test was done using ordinary shop type equipment. Most of us to not have access to super high pressure as used by some professional stabilizing companies so I am not saying that pressure is not effective, just that, based on this test, for the home shop environment, 70psi is not as effective as a deep vacuum.
Curtis O. Seebeck
www.turntex.com
MesquiteMan's Cactus Juice stabilizing resin

Offline VECtor Calls

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Re: Discussion on vacuum pumps for stabilizing
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2012, 10:22:09 PM »
Wow!  SOOO many questions!  Give me some time to wrap my head around all of this.  :D

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Offline Crawdad

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Re: Discussion on vacuum pumps for stabilizing
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2012, 08:03:50 AM »
All I can say is WOOOOOW!!! You really know your stuff,I am impressed. Looking forward to seeing more of your post, Welcome Curtis :bow: :bow:

Offline Truly Custom Calls

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Re: Discussion on vacuum pumps for stabilizing
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2012, 10:27:06 AM »
Curtis, thanks for the wealth of information. :bigup:  Have you cut any blanks up to see how far the resin is able to penetrate per method?  Would it be beneficial to drill a pilot hole in the blank before to get the resin closer to the center? 
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Offline BigB

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Re: Discussion on vacuum pumps for stabilizing
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2012, 12:33:30 PM »


Awesome info and thanks for sharing!  I too am curious about if a pilot hole will help get the resin to the core. Do you see any warping of the wood due to your process?  If I typically have a 5/8ths hole for my call blanks, would you recommend drilling that size of hole before stabilizing?  Or would the blank warp enough that the 5/8ths hole isn't straight through the blank after being stabilized.

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Offline TurnTex

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Re: Discussion on vacuum pumps for stabilizing
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2012, 02:10:53 PM »
Curtis, thanks for the wealth of information. :bigup:  Have you cut any blanks up to see how far the resin is able to penetrate per method?  Would it be beneficial to drill a pilot hole in the blank before to get the resin closer to the center?

Actually, yes I did!  I cut one of each of the blanks from this test.  Here are some photos.

All three blanks ripped lengthwise with the insides facing up.
From left to right: Vacuum, soak, pressure



Close up of the Vac Blank


Closeup of the soak blank:


Close up of the pressure blank:


Each blank set was dyed a different color so I would not get them confused once polymerized. In the soak and pressure close-ups above, you can see the areas that a lacking color, thus lacking stabilizing resin. The resin did penetrate all the way through the blank, though.

Here is a photo taken with a blacklight. The resin used has flourescent dyes in them that will glow under a black light.  The blanks are in the same order left to right: vac, soak, pressure. The photo was hard to get and does not show the contrast like it did in real life but you should be able to see a more intense glow on the vac blanks.
Curtis O. Seebeck
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MesquiteMan's Cactus Juice stabilizing resin

Offline TurnTex

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Re: Discussion on vacuum pumps for stabilizing
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2012, 02:23:37 PM »


Awesome info and thanks for sharing!  I too am curious about if a pilot hole will help get the resin to the core. Do you see any warping of the wood due to your process?  If I typically have a 5/8ths hole for my call blanks, would you recommend drilling that size of hole before stabilizing?  Or would the blank warp enough that the 5/8ths hole isn't straight through the blank after being stabilized.

Brian

If you are using vacuum, you do not need to pre-drill.  Not sure on the soak or pressure method since I don't use that method in regular use!  For testing purposes a while back, I did a 7.25" x 7.25" x 3.5" block of spalted hackberry just to see what kind of penetration I could get.  I dyed the resin a burgundy color to make it easy to tell.  After the blank was cured, I mounted it on the lathe and turned a bowl.  I had 100% complete, uniform color all the way through the blank!

The only real reason I see for drilling and or rounding the blank ahead of time is to reduce the amount of wood that needs to be stabilized, thus reducing the amount of resin used.  The resin is not cheap so any little bit helps.  After I got done turning that bowl, I looked at the pile of chips on the floor and only saw $$!

If your wood is completely dry, then you should not get any warping.  I recommend that you get the wood 100% dry before stabilizing.  Any moisture left in the wood will be taking up cellular space that could be filled with resin.  Even kiln dried wood still has moisture in it.  I usually place my air or kiln dried blanks in my toaster oven at 150° F overnight.  This will oven dry the blanks.  Then, as soon as I take them out, I place them in a large zip lock bag.  If there is any moisture still in the blank, the bag will fog up and you will know it is not completely dry.  Also, oven dry blanks will pick up moisture very quickly from the humidity in your air until it reaches EMC (Equilibrium Moisture Content), the point where the wood will no longer gain or loose moisture.  The amount depends on the relative humidity for your area.  Here in Central Texas, the EMC is around 10%.

If you do decide to pre-drill, I would drill it a little smaller than you need.  That way you can run the drill back through after polymerization to clean up any resin that has polymerized on the surface of the inside of your hole and straighten up the hole if it does warp a little bit.
Curtis O. Seebeck
www.turntex.com
MesquiteMan's Cactus Juice stabilizing resin

Offline Aaron at Wingerts Woodworks

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Re: Discussion on vacuum pumps for stabilizing
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2012, 03:52:10 PM »
Incredibly informative Curtis.   :yes:

Offline Shooter007

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Re: Discussion on vacuum pumps for stabilizing
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2012, 03:57:51 PM »
Great article and great scientific evidence, I'm an analyst by trade so I love this stuff but that is truly very well put together, I've been thinking about rigging up my own vacuum chamber for some time but this definitely give me some insight I didn't have before.
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Offline TurnTex

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Re: Discussion on vacuum pumps for stabilizing
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2012, 06:16:57 PM »
Great article and great scientific evidence, I'm an analyst by trade so I love this stuff but that is truly very well put together, I've been thinking about rigging up my own vacuum chamber for some time but this definitely give me some insight I didn't have before.

Wow!  I am honored!  I am just a good old boy with a Business Degree and appreciate your comments on my data collection!  I am very analytical by nature and it is nice to have someone with your insight appreciate my methods!
Curtis O. Seebeck
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MesquiteMan's Cactus Juice stabilizing resin

Offline Grinder

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Re: Discussion on vacuum pumps for stabilizing
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2012, 09:21:21 PM »
Curtis,

I am rather new to the forum, I work with wood and also make knives....Have played with different things but not setting up
a vacuum to stabilize. What is your medium for stabilizing. are there several that can be used, if so what in your experience is the best. \
How is it purchased?...by the gallon? Cost would vary by liquid being used and the size of your tank or batch being stabilized I presume.
I have bought alot of wood from Steve at KFand B..It is great wood and the folks at Woodlab that do their stabilizing sure have a great product.
I have contemplated building a system for  stabilizing...sure appreciate what you have shared here in this thread particularily concerning the vacuum pumps...http://thogamecallsforums.com/Smileys/set1_b/thS_THUM1.gif
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Offline stelz

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Re: Discussion on vacuum pumps for stabilizing
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2012, 12:34:50 PM »
Well heck, I may have to look into this, I am set up with a big vaccum system and pressure system for all my molding already..
HMMMM more money to burn!!!