THO Game Calls Forums
The Art of Handcrafting Custom Game Calls => Handcrafting Custom Duck Calls => Topic started by: Aaron at Wingerts Woodworks on September 21, 2009, 09:31:28 PM
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Hey everybody-
I've read a couple tutorials, the Keats book, and an online video or two and nobody seems to agree about whether or not to pin the bands on duck and goose calls.
Here's what I've been doing, and it seems to be working. Are my methods flawed?
I turn a tenon on the call so the band fits snugly. I always use dried wood, never green or even slightly green. I part a couple 1/16" deep grooves on the tenon in an effort to give the glue something to grab to. I rough up the inside of the band with 80 grit, and I use a scratch awl to put some very deep scratches/grooves in it, also in an effort to give the glue something to grab to. I use two part clear epoxy, the 5 minute variety, and apply it liberally to the wood, filling the grooves. I put the band on and clean the excess, then let it dry. After drying I part the barrel end of the wood off so I get a perfect fit, then sand and polish. The bands seem really solid and don't seem to be going anywhere.
Is glue enough or should I be pinning them? Not sure I understand the whole process of pinning. I'd love to hear some opinions on the matter.
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I do not pin my bands but I have not been at this very long.
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Have always pined bands on any wood call. Some does not and may be ok using glue but when I first started out making calls I used what I thought was dry wood and as one would guess there was always one that would come loose so I just started putting pins in all wood calls because wood is going to change.
If you will notice Echo pins all their wood call bands and would guess it is for a reason.
I do put the band on tight and usually use 2 pins but if the band is not really tight I will use 3.
ben
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Have not pinned any of mine. Had trouble with CA, epoxy and all that I've tried. Been wanting to try to pin some to alleviate problems on the wood. Dont know how tuff it will be on the stainless bands though.
David
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I rough cut my tennon where the band will go, and then let the wood rest for a few days before I install the band. I learned the hard way that the tennon will shrink in diameter if you cut the tennon and then immediately install the band. I had a few loose bands in a few days. I have tried the 2ton epoxy and gorilla glue. I was moving around some calls that I made a few years ago last night, and noticed that some of them had loose bands on them too. I'm not sure if they were gorilla glue or epoxy calls, but they were loose.
I've never pinned a band.
I use the Brass Ringer tool to crimp on both sides of the band. Haven't had one come loose or come off yet.
Brian
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Trust me from experience. You need to pin your bands. It may seem tight now, but over time that wood will shrink. I dont care what you are using for wood, 90% of the time that wood will shrink and your band will come off. Truthfully, pinning only adds a few minutes to a call and it will give you piece of mind that it will never come off. It may wiggle some, but will never come off.... I always thought pinning was a pain, but its easier and quicker than glueing in the end. Good luck with glueing guys....
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Ok, you guys are successfully selling me on pinning. :yes: I appreciate you all taking the time to respond.
Now, the BIG question. How the heck do you do it? Are they nails or just pieces of round metal stock? If they're special pins where do you get them? Pre-drill the hole, glue the pin in, grind/file/sand it flush??? What works? :thanks:
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I dont really care for bands myself, but Ive done more than a few, and to me, pinning is the way to go, that is, if you do not use the Brass Ringer tool. If I was banding any of my calls, I would definetly purchase the brass ringer.
edit: should have said press fit and pinning.
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I dont really care for bands myself, but Ive done more than a few, and to me, pinning is the way to go, that is, if you do not use the Brass Ringer tool. If I was banding any of my calls, I would definetly purchase the brass ringer.
Who makes or sells that tool? Never seen one.
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This may help you http://www.edglenn.net/instructions.pdf and you can buy it here http://customduckcalls.net/hays_glenn.htm
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Well, in comes the guy with the dissenting opinion :rofl: :rofl: There's always one isn't there? :rofl: :rofl:
In my opinion, pinning is a waste of time and more trouble than it is worth (told you I had a dissenting opinion) It can cause your barrel to crack (not only from the pinning but from the filing of the pin and sanding it smooth) , the pins can get loose and fall out, Sometimes they look ugly on a band because you just can't get them flush and blended in (though I have pinned stainless with brass and copper pins and that looks sharp)
But really it's a personal choice and pinned calls look like the old school and you take care and pride in your work.
I just believe there is a much better way to put bands on a call. I even wrote a short tutorial on it and it is posted here in the forums and on the main page of the site.
Believe me, I tried pinning, and pinned all of my bands for a couple of years because everyone said it was the way to do it.
Since I have changed the way I put them on, I have never had one come off. Never. Period. Never cracked a barrel, never had a band that would not polish out.
But really, it's up to you which way you want to do it. As long as you stand behind your calls, and are ready to fix a band if it does come off, then use whatever way you are comfortable with.
The only caution I would give you is to be very careful with expoxy - especially the Devcon 5 minute brand. It is not water proof and it will dissolve in water. If you use devcon, use the 2 ton long cure stuff.
Good luck and good turning -
Al @ THO
The great part about this hobby is that there is no "right" or "wrong" way to do stuff, just what you are comfortable with and what works for you.
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Well, I'm kinda "pinned down" on this one...... It's could get "sticky" ..... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
It's too early and I need coffee... sorry for the lame joke.....
Mutt
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Never done any stainless steel so have no opinion there and the drilling would be mean anyway.
I have always used brass and have pinned all since the first few and have never had a barrel crack because of pinning. I drill the pin hole nearly through and drive the pointed pin down until it hits the mandrel that I have it on sand just starts to bend then clip it off and mushroom the head which also mushrooms the other end and no way will the pin loosen up file off and it hides itself so you can finish the band from there. Rarely can you find the pin unless you are really looking for it.
Maybe I can get some pic's together and post how I do it.
Brass ringer never used but saw how it works at Reelfoot a couple years ago and its limited to about .035 thickness or you cannot fold the sides to tighten the band. It does do a good job of securing the band.
ben
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Thank you for those links Harvey.
Al, I read your tutorial before I ever made a call and generally adapted your method. It sounds like it has worked for you and your customers and that is very encouraging. That's good to know about the epoxy, I'll have to double check what I'm using....I see a water immersion test coming on a reject call or a glob of epoxy.
AS FOR PINS, what the heck are they and where can I get them? Can I just use tiny round brass rod? Are they glued in place? I know the Keats book says to peen the end of them before filing them down but I'm not seeing how that can/should be done. Nail set? Scratch awl? Waste of time?
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Thanks Ben, you posted while I was typing!
I'd love to see how you do it. Still not grasping the idea of how you get both ends to mushroom out before filing. :no:
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I drill the pin hole nearly through and drive the pointed pin down until it hits the mandrel that I have it on sand just starts to bend then clip it off and mushroom the head which also mushrooms the other end and no way will the pin loosen up file off and it hides itself so you can finish the band from there.
ben
What Ben is talking about is "Peening" the pin over, much the way we used to install rivets back in the day. This works well, and is how I pin most of my bands on. The only difference is that I use JB weld to bond the band on before I pin it.
As for pins, I use brass welding rods I get from the local welding supply store. They work well, and don't cost much. You can also get them in aluminum. I prefer the 1/8" rods, and I drill my hole just a size smaller and grind a small taper into the pin, which acts like a wedge and keeps the pin from slipping out.
Bob
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Hey KC......I do not make duck calls but do collect them.....I saw brass pins on the Echo web site the other day.....I do not recall the price though....I have used the brass rod like Jester is talking about on some turkey call bands years ago.....You can get it in several different sizes...I have bought it at Lowe's in the past....
Good luck!
Hayes
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Call Rick up at echo and order the pins. He also sells the drill bits as well. Be sure to buy extra drill bits, cause they like to break, especially if you not use to drilling with such a small bit. I'll try to throw up some pics of how I pin. Its easy once you do it a few times.
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echo sells the pins and the drill bits. pins are $.02 and the bit is $2.00. the size of the bit is .050 if you can find it somewhere else.
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Thank you guys for all your help and advice, it is greatly appreciated.
I did do a test on my quick setting epoxy and it is waterproof. Thank goodness. Didn't want to have to trash all the calls I have sitting in my shop!
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You can order brass rod from several different places and cut your own pins. Match them to a good drill bit and you are all set. OnlineMetals.com or Mcmaster.com are two places to get the solid rod. If you have an ACE Hardware in your area, they used to have a brass bin where you could also buy brass rods for pinning.
I still think a press fit is better :eek:
But that's what makes the world go round - which ever way you feel comfortable with and works for you, is the right way. And dont let anyone tell you different :nono:
Al @ THO