THO Game Calls Forums
The Art of Handcrafting Custom Game Calls => Competition Calling => Topic started by: stumpjumper on February 20, 2015, 07:41:03 PM
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So...anyone have any questions on calling or call operation in general? Glad to listen to sound files...routines or you simply blowing a call. Best way I can help is to hear your calling.
STUMP
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I'd like to take you up on that offer. What's the best way to post up a sound file on here?
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Upload the video to photobucket...then paste the link here boss
Stump
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Stump, I'm not ready to post up any sound files, but I did take your advice and bought the Carlson 2 cd set. I've been playing it in my truck to and from work. Lots of good instruction in there. I have some bad ha boys to break for sure.
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http://s851.photobucket.com/user/jcluesman/media/20150221_084117.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0
I did like Aaron and bought the Carlson dvds. I've not been calling very long. I appreciate the opportunity for feedback and advice.
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jcluesman,
What call are you blowing in the soundfile boss. Need to make sure that I fully know where you are to begin. But, I will say this.....hats off for posting a soundfile sir!!!! Takes alot for people to put it out there
STUMP
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I'm using a metal reed from Benjamin "Bear" Lyle.
I'm from the far east of Tennessee (the duck hunting desert) and I have nobody around (at least that I'm aware of)
that is a good caller to sort of coach me along.
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Stump, do you teach goose calls too?
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I'm using a metal reed from Benjamin "Bear" Lyle.
Now that makes since...We need to get you on a quality J Frame for me to help. I`m not a metal reed (Reelfoot) style guy. Is getting you on a quality J Frame for teaching purposes possible?
Goose...sorry boss, not a goose caller. Expert fag`er though :eek:
STUMP
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http://s851.photobucket.com/user/jcluesman/media/RM%20CWF%20run1.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0
I literally just got a CWF in the mail a couple hours ago. Here it is sir.
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Ok...so..you have what I consider to be the number one issue with calling. Thin or forward pressure air. Using this kind of air does two things, first it raises the pitch of the call and makes the call sound thin (thin meaning very little rattle).
Now...place your hand in front of your mouth and pretend to blow a call and do a single quack. Feel the temperature of the air hitting your hand. Next use the word hut (like a quarterback) and feel the temperature of that air. Lastly, do the quarterback back hut again but also drop your adams apple. You will find the last method will produce the hottest air.
Take that quaterback hut and dropped adams apple and blow a single quack into the call. You should hear a deeper tone and feel the reed rattle as you quack.
Just do that. Once you understand and feel the differance we can talk about qating of the note.
By the way....again hats off to you for posting a file. I'll do all o can to help. Better caller equals better call maker
Stump
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Stump, when you say "use the word hut" are you putting any kind of voice in the call? I have been taught not to use voice, and have learned to use the word "hut" or "hush" silently and without much if any vocalization. Just wanting to clarify. I'm always learning new things.
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http://s851.photobucket.com/user/jcluesman/media/20150221_165446.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0
ok, round two.
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No voice boss. But by telling you a word I'm showing you where the air comes from is all. Just a starting point.
Stump
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Better...now where is the tip of your tongue? Should ALWAYS be at the gum line of your bottom teeth. Never use the tip of your tongue.
Also....slow down your air. Draw the quack out....qqquuuuaaaaaaaacccck. You should start the quack with a throat burst....allow the air to natural come up and over your tongue. To gate (end) the note the REAR of your tongue (where it is if you said the word cua) Comes up and stops the air.
Just for thought here.....slow hot air achieves a deeper fuller note...fast cooler air achieves a thinner higher pitched note. If needed really draw out the quack to learn the machanics and slow the air down. Gotta get the air presentation correct to move forward.
Stump
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http://s851.photobucket.com/user/jcluesman/media/20150221_193535.mp4.html?filters[user]=97564606&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=0
Tongue is placed at the gum line.
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Bad link brother
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http://s851.photobucket.com/user/jcluesman/media/20150221_193535.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0
Oops, the one I didn't check.
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Gotta say this is a cool thing you are doing. Ill put one up if I can figure out how
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Your still pushing the air to fast. Softer brother...slow down and draw the quack out. Feel the reed vibrating. Drop the adams apple and use deep hot air (like your trying to talk like Barry White). If you were to be using a word like hut...don't think your doing the quarterback hut hut hut thing. It's more of a hhhhhhhuuuuuuuuttttttttttt almost like fogging a window air.
Do not get discouraged!!!!! Remember a duck call is a wind operated musical instrument. One doesn't learn to play a sax in a day.
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Ill work on it and post my progress tomorrow. I really appreciate you taking the time to coach me along.
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Now worries....if your willing to work on it...I'm willing to help boss.
Stump
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http://s851.photobucket.com/user/jcluesman/media/20150222_085908.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0
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How's this, Stump? (http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l62/krzyjon123/Mobile%20Uploads/th_WP_20150222_004_zpsfwwpqfjd.mp4) (http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l62/krzyjon123/Mobile%20Uploads/WP_20150222_004_zpsfwwpqfjd.mp4)
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Jcluesman....your still using forward pressure and blowing to much from your upper body and mouth.
Let's talk throat burst..
.without a call....close your mouth...now pop your throat....hup hup hup....feel that? That's where you begin the note. Now open your mouth and without a call pop you throat. Don't push the air forward...let that throat burst push for you. Feel the heat of the air and slowly raise the rear of your tongue to cut the note. Now try with the call. Hhuuusssssshhhhh. Try to blow a soft duck.
David...not to bad boss! Sounds like good full hot air. Do that again but make it a quite soft duck. If your air is right it will sound the same just quiter. That tells you if the air is right. Soft burst....soft good sounding quack.
Stump
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It sounds the same. ;D I guess that means my air is right. Now what? I think I can call pretty good but having confirmation that I can at least do a quack right is good. Thanks!
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http://s851.photobucket.com/user/jcluesman/media/20150222_154021.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0
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Haven`t posted in a few days.....just to allow time to work o it. jcluesman...last soundfile you were simply opening you throat and letting air into the call with no structure hence the sound. Open that throat boss....throat burst....allow the air to vibrate the reed....push air forward and structure the quack then cut the note. Learning once you have the right air to structure it.....its the secret right there.
I`ll attempt to post just a simple quack this afternoon
STUMP
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http://s851.photobucket.com/user/jcluesman/media/20150226_104911.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0
I'm determined to get this right.
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Better...now where is the tip of your tongue? Should ALWAYS be at the gum line of your bottom teeth. Never use the tip of your tongue.
Awesome thread Stump. Just for curiosity sake... what is the reason for this? Other than spitting into the call? I tend to be an unorthodox caller in that i cut with the tip of my tongue a lot and I also have my teeth closed together. It gives me more control. Been working on the second half to get a bigger range of sound; its just something I started many years ago and I guess bad habits stick.
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Okay, so after I posted I grabbed a call and tried it out. With my teeth open like a normal person, it only makes sense to keep it at the bottom teeth gumline... never noticed I did that. I'd still like to hear your response though.
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Jcluesman....as you throat burst into the call you should feel the feedback from the reed vibrate....you gotta learn to drive the air into that reed to get the call to run for you. Time
Clint. ...using the tip of the tongue causes thin air (no different than placing a thumb over a water hose). This cause the call to become thin and tingy not achieving a full thick tone.
Stump
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Something I think Stump is trying to allude to with the air side of things is that there are multiple facets of air flow, not just one. And being able to control each one separately of the others really helps to find the right air for a call.
You can change the air pressure, the volume of air, and the speed of the air with varying the mouth cavity (tongue position), throat (gating - or throat bursts as Stump says), and stomach muscles. And ALL of this comes into play to get a high quality note.
Jcluesman: At the risk of contradicting the Stumpenator, Ill try and say the same thing he is, but with different terms. (Im assuming youre using one of Stumps CWFs?) On your last two clips, your the velocity of the air is too slow. The Volume is okay it seems, but its moving too slow. You can increase pressure to increase air speed, but youll also increase volume of air... which will make the volume of the call go up and likely raise the pitch. If you increase air speed but adding restriction from either your throat and/or tongue, you will increase air speed, but lower the volume of air - that should yield a better quack at a lower volume and maintain a good pitch.
In your clip 6, youre just "breathing" into the call. Sounds like its cool air from your chest, not hot, deep down air from your belly, and there is not really any controlled start of each note. (think about a ref's whistle... very different sound when you put it in your mouth, puff up your cheeks and blow as compared to tight cheeks (wwwwwhhhhhhEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeeeehh), or block the whistle with your tongue, take a breath, pressurize your throat and mouth, and pull your tongue back for a sec and then slap it back over the whistle (WEEEEEEEEEEEEEET) - Same thing happens with calls... uncontroled air at the start and or end spoils the whole note. Starting with controlled air, and finishing with controlled air, not only leads to a better note overall, but also it becomes easier to control what the air is doing during the note.
Clip 7, is a little better in terms of there being a start and a stop of each note. But the air velocity keeps it flat and dull. With the pitch changes in each note, it seems youre mouthing a word, what is it? Youll find that using various areas of your tongue to start or stop a note will affect not only the pitch at the start or end of the note, but also in the middle of the note as your tongue transitions from one point to another. From what I have seen, usually a note ending with an upward pitch change or "swing" is usually caused by the tongue moving too far forward. Think of the difference when you say the word "ick" and the word "uck". The way your note ends, I would suspect tongue position to be like "ick", and what you are probably wanting would be the position of "uck" or even a touch farther back.
Clint: To harmonize with Stump-a-lumpagus - the tip of your tongue cutting off notes has the tendency to drastically increase air velocity as the tongue moves, because the air is passing through the narrowest portion of your mouth for the tip of the tongue to be able to cut it off. That will lead to notes ending with an upswing in pitch and fall off in volume which doesnt sound very realistic. If gating the air with the throat, or using the tongue much farther back in the mouth, you are shutting off the big supply in the same time interval, and not affecting the velocity of the air so much. Now Im not saying one cant learn to counter act those affects, but its usually pretty easy to pic out a 'tip of the tongue to the top' caller.
Hope I didnt add confusion for anyone one. Just thought trying the say the same things with different words might help some. Sometimes the hardest part of learning how to do something is digesting the terminology.
Cheers
Wade
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Hello!
jcluesman shared a video with you.
View Video, http://s851.photobucket.com/user/jcluesman/media/20150226_184249.mp4.html
I may need to wait for a sound file from Stump. I'm using hut. I'm making sure my tongue is placed behind my teeth at the gum line. I think I'm understanding what you guys are saying. Maybe just poor execution on my part.
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Think about it this way... You need to gate the air in the back of your throat. "H" isnt going to allow that because it forces you to open up the air way.
And ending in "t" is going to make the pitch swing up at the end unnaturally.
Think about the techno dance stuff... Oont tsss oont tss oont tss The begining of the "Oont" is made by gating.
Ending in K or G will help get that arch in your tongue back and cut off the note more naturally.
I wish I could make a sound file, but cant get my recording stuff to work... apparently the upgrade from XP to Win7 created issues with everything and nothing works. So Ill have to dig around and see what I can come up with there at some point. But took a series of quacks from an old recording I did. Not on the same call as youre using (which was my initial goal) but at least its something. Notice the note starts and stops abruptly. Gating the start of the note and cutting off with gating and tongue position using "k".
http://www.webfootcustomcalls.com/soundfiles/10quack.wav (http://www.webfootcustomcalls.com/soundfiles/10quack.wav)
Wade
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Hello!
jcluesman shared a video with you.
View Video, http://s851.photobucket.com/user/jcluesman/media/20150226_211120.mp4.html
Am I getting closer?
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Thanks Wade. That makes sense. I've never had anyone so technically describe how the sounds come out. I'm self taught from a long time ago but realized recently there's a lot of sounds I don't know how to accomplish. Never stop learning!
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Listening to all the sound files your short stopping the call/air. Your notes have no finish they just end. If you listen to Wades clip it's like "quaaaaaaaaaack" your notes are like "quak" it sounds like your pinching the air off with your tongue and not finishing the note.
Larry
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Posting this for Stump.... http://www.webfootcustomcalls.com/soundfiles/stump_ex1.mp4 (http://www.webfootcustomcalls.com/soundfiles/stump_ex1.mp4)
Jcluesman,
Sounds like (as mentioned above) you are not gating at the start and end of the note. Youre starting and stopping the air at the source... lungs/diaphragm. I think youre making progress a bit with air flow, there is an increase in the sound quality on the last one... but its still flat. But it will take time... so dont get discouraged.
I was helping friend learn to call one time, and we went round and round with everything... youre not gating, youre using the tip of your tongue, not enough volume of air, too much pressure, too slow air, too fast... and on and on. And almost every time his response was "I am!" or "I did!". I bet for weeks we kept butting heads... Finally, one morning he calls me completely ecstatic. "LISTEN TO THIS!!!" and by golly, he had a good quack. I asked him, "So how'd you figure that out?" His exact response, "I did what you told me to!". He said it was the craziest thing... he was driving along practicing in the pickup, and all of a sudden he got one good note. Took him a minute or two to get to it again, but then he was able to repeat it pretty regularly. Turns out, for him, it wasnt that he wasnt trying to do what I was explaining, it wasnt that he didnt understand what I was telling him to do... nor that he couldnt do what I was trying to teach him... but he had to train his body understand what it was that his brain was trying to tell it to do. And the he got there was trying over and over until he got it right accidentally, and then try and zero in on it, and start doing that on purpose.
Think about the air flow/presentation like this... and if you have an air compressor and a few fittings and a ball valve, you can make a perfect example of it so you can see/feel it in real life...
Say you have an air hose, and it has a valve at the outlet end. You open the end valve, then hold your hand over the end to feel the flow, and then plug in the compressor. The flow, velocity, and pressure builds up over time until the maximum capacity of the compressor is reached. Now unplug the compressor and the air flow decreases over time from residual pressure in the tank. Now shut the valve at the END of the hose. Open the valve. Immediate full flow/velocity/pressure. Shut it, instant off, no ramp up or down in flow. Now, put your thumb over the end of the hose with the valve on, see how you can manipulate the air? reduce flow, increase velocity, alter the pressure, fan it out, a little jet stream, etc... Now we apply that to calling...
Your diaphragm/belly is the compressor. Your lungs are the tank. Your wind pipe is the hose.Your throat is the valve. Your tongue/mouth cavity is the thumb. In reality, I feel the tongue plays a role in stopping the note, but its combined with gating so its kind of poorly shown in that example.
The start and stop of a note is dependent on the actual air flow starting and stopping. The quality of the sound produced between the start and the end is reliant on your mouth cavity. A good note starts and stops abruptly and is completely controlled. You cant controll the air if its allowed to move freely to equalize pressure.
Listen to your recording again, then listen to the old one I posted and the one of Stumps... are you getting closer? One thing I think people do is look at things as a whole, and try and do it all at once... break it down into parts. The start of the note, the body of the note, and the end. Pick one and get it, then the next, then put those two together, then learn the third and put two together, then put all three together. Right now youre after a specific result, not a "perfect sound". My techno example is good for gating and starting the note. Trying to end the note with K or G helps me get a good note finish. The hard part I think, is the body of the note... you need to just do a single long note, hold it, and change the variables while holding it, all the while listening for the sound quality you want. Once you do it once, you know it exists and you can keep chasing it. Sooner or later, your body will remember what it did to get that note, and you can start replicating it, and start committing it to muscle memory. (thats why bad habits are so hard to break - they become muscle memory and become "natural")
At the risk of looking like a twit, and for sure sounding like a smurf on helium... here is a link to "The Quack" track on an instructional I did a long long time ago (I bet more than 10 years ago now). Keep in mind, I have learned much since then, my calls have gotten much better and different, and my calling style/preference has changed because of it. So what you hear here, I may or may not admit to :P But you're welcome to laugh and mock it all you want... I was probably a little over-eager at the time to do an instructional because local people kept asking for one, when I really wasnt ready to do one. Its about 25 megs and I think 26 min long?, so be aware its a large file.
http://www.webfootcustomcalls.com/soundfiles/thequack.mp3 (http://www.webfootcustomcalls.com/soundfiles/thequack.mp3)
Cheers
Wade
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http://s851.photobucket.com/user/jcluesman/media/20150227_164827.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0
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Hey I hear improvement! Your making progress!
Larry
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I think youre making some progress there! (doh Larry, you had faster fingers!) sounds like you need a touch more air volume which I think will bring the pitch down a little and fill out the sound. But notice its not as flat sounding as before? It also has a more discernible start and stop to the note. I get the feeling either your "hissing" the air a bit tongue position as if you were going "sssssss" or "ssshhhhhh" - or possibly closing your lips together a touch? Either brings the air speed up, but lowers volume so you get a bit higher pitch and and quieter.
Keep practicing! It will come.
You are using a CWF from Stump right?
Dang if I could get this darn computer to play nice, I could grab the CWF I have here and try and do some examples of various things... sometimes technology is a pain in my rump...
I can tell you this... if you are blowing a CWF like I think you are... when you get a full on mid register quack... there is such rattle and rasp in that call - you will FEEL it when its right. Its almost like it rattles your brains.
As you progress, if you havent yet, you might check into the Pro Duck Calling DVD by Carlson. Jim did a great job with it, and the section on the "9 Mandatorys" will really help to drive home (as well as practice) the basic necessary principles of calling. To me, I view those 9 mandatorys as more than mandatory... they help you practice not only what you want, but what you dont want, and if you know how to do something that is not good, you know how to avoid doing it, which is almost more helpful than knowing what youre supposed to do. That makes sense right? I think? Maybe?
Wade
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Thanks for the help guys! I was blowing hot air from the lungs. I know to use my diaphragm I just didn't notice I wasn't using it. I'll practice throughout the weekend and post my progress.
I think you're right about the hissing, ill work on eliminating that.
I am blowing a second hand CWF
I have the Carlson 2 disc set, I've kinda laid off listening to it until I learn to do a basic quack.
Again, I really appreciate all the help and encouragement :thanks:
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Much much better. I hear some structure now. I do have one question....seeing as that is a second hand CWF, do you think the reed is to short? Never know what the guy before you did.
Stump
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If someone trimmed it I can't tell. I've got an inquiry in with the previous owner. Ill see if I can get some info and let you know.
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If you measure the reed with a caliper, and let Stump know what the length is, I bet he would likely be able to tell you if it were trimmed or not.
Wade
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1.460"
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Yep.....trimmed. Which would explain the high pitch issue
Stump
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Should it be 1.5"? I can cut a new reed.
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I simply cut a longer reed and use a foam nail file and sand the back of the reed to dial it in where I want it boss.
You can always send it to me and just cover shipping and I'll buff it and tune her all up to run
Stump
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I think I'll just send it on over to you sir. I guess it'd be kind of pointless for me to tune a call until I learn to run one right. How much do you need for return shipping? I'll send it to you Monday.
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1 million dollars muhahahahaha
$5.50 boss
Stump
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I've got one million doll hairs and a half a Twinkie! :rofl:
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Alright Stump My turn. This is with your insert and clear barrel you sent me for the video a year ago.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/80097267@N06/16499757438/in/photostream/
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I've got one million doll hairs and a half a Twinkie! :rofl:
Mmmmmmm twinkiessssssss
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Alright Stump My turn. This is with your insert and clear barrel you sent me for the video a year ago.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/80097267@N06/16499757438/in/photostream/
I must apologize, I reread this post and It was so rude of me! I never meant to assume that I could jump in here with a sound file and expect Stump to review it and comment about it without asking proper to him. I should kick myself in the butt because I would if my kids did this!
I apologize to Stump for sounding like I was taking advantage of his kindness to help anyone become a better caller or call maker.
So let me try this correctly
Stump, would mind taking a few minutes and revue my sound file and give me some advice and or tips to become a better call operator.
Thanks in advance
Ron
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I'll be getting back in town soon Ron. Sound quality on my cell isn't the best to really give you a critique. I'll take a good listen and let you know boss
Stump
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Alright Stump My turn. This is with your insert and clear barrel you sent me for the video a year ago.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/80097267@N06/16499757438/in/photostream/
Lets talk the quacks and strings and not the feed. Quacks kill ducks plain and simple. I can hear the rattle in the call when you start the note but from the squeaks and high tones it sounds like you struggle with pushing the air and gating the notes. Am I correct?
STUMP
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If i understand what you are saying, the first part of the quack starts out good but i need to continue to push the same amount of Air and pressure though the note and break it off quick? I am tapering both down from the start of it to the end of it.
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You nailed it Ron...There is a point where you push forward pressure into the call hince the squeaks and high tones. Learning to control your air to eliminate than we call driving the call. It is easier to learn this with medium to low volume work. Doing high volume calling prior to learning to drive a call normally causes one to constrict their throat to push air into the call. Practice at a medium to low volume until the muscle memory is developed sir
Stump
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Thank you, let me work on it for a couple day and post another sound file.
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A couple days of working in it! just quacks. Trying to push clean air through it. I caught myself fluttering?? air across my tongue and even putting my lip together on the call. and could hear what I thought was that squeak. See if I am heading the right direction. Thanks again.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/80097267@N06/16095369334/
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Yes better Ron. Slow down a tad...one single quack then a good pause then another single quack. Get just that down. With each single quack your learning the basic muscle memory which will become second nature then you can do just three note stings. But right now...single good quack....pause...single good quack.
Also step about 15 to 20 paces away from the camera....this way there is no distortion feedback and all we hear is you boss.
STUMP
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... Slow down a tad...one single quack then a good pause then another single quack. Get just that down. With each single quack your learning the basic muscle memory which will become second nature then you can do just three note stings. But right now...single good quack....pause...single good quack...
STUMP
Some of the best advise right there... for everyone learning. Seems like its human nature to want to try and do it all and work on it all - all at the same time. But its so important to have that one aspect of calling down because it is the basis for darn near everything else... it deserves the total focus. One quack at a time. Or for goose calls... one honk at a time. Because so much of the cadences are just quacks or honks strung together.
Also, I think something that can help with air presentation is working on long consistent notes. Not just short ones. The long ones give you time to find the right tongue position and then forces you to maintain the proper air... helping you learn better control and stamina.
Keep it up guys! It wont come over night... but with practice, it will come.
Wade
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Jcluesman.....I recieved the CWF that you bought second hand in the shop today. I have no idea who you got the call from but whoever it was had no clue what he was doing!!!!!!! The reed is way way way to short....plus it's bent and bows up....and to top it off they cut an 1/8" off the front of the cork. Wow....bo I can't even get the thing to do a quack!!! Trust me though, when I return her....she will be a runner for sure!!!!!!!
Stump
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Ha! I thought when I asked the fella he was acting kind of squirrely. He said "I can't remember if I shortened it or not, I very well could have." I practically stole it anyhow.
I can't wait to get it back, I've been practicing my quack all week.
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Stump and Wade, I just had to jump in here and say thanks to the both of you for what you're doing. That's what makes this site outstanding. I've been following this post since the beginning and it's forced me to evaluate my own calling. Always a good thing for all of us.
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Ha! I thought when I asked the fella he was acting kind of squirrely. He said "I can't remember if I shortened it or not, I very well could have." I practically stole it anyhow.
I can't wait to get it back, I've been practicing my quack all week.
If that is how he attempts to tune a call....he should quit duck hunting all together. :wacko:
Stump
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Just got my CWF back today Stump! :thanks: I've practiced for a couple hours on and off and here's what I've got. .
http://s851.photobucket.com/user/jcluesman/media/20150309_190226.mp4.html?sort=3&o=0
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(http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu91/m7rogers/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-03/th_4D7AA31B-FE82-44C8-BC80-4B2F31001A0B.mp4) (http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu91/m7rogers/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-03/4D7AA31B-FE82-44C8-BC80-4B2F31001A0B.mp4)
Mr stump could you give this a listen and see what part of it that needs work please its very random lol or anyone that has some pointers is more than welcome to chime in .Thanks
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jcluesman,
Boss, your air is still flat. Your not throat bursting air into the call. Close your mouth and pop (throat burst) your throat. Now put the call up to your mouth and do that into the call. Trust me, when you get the air right, that call will rattle your teeth. I ran the poo poo out of it before it left
mrogers,
Not sure what call your blowing...but it sounds as though you have the mechanics correct for the most part but the call is limiting what your getting out of it. Call sounds tight meaning its hard to get the reed to start its oscillation and once that starts you get rattle but its on the thin side of rattle. Make since?
STUMP
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Yes it does and thanks for the help I'll work on it and try again.
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Jcluesman
Im with Stumpalumpagus... air still isnt right, and its making the call sound flat. He is also dead on, you get it right, and that call will rattle your brains. Youll FEEL that its right... you wont even need to hear it.
Your notes are still starting out a bit gradually, which is an indication your gating or throat burst like Stump says isnt quite right yet. Keep working on it, it WILL take time to get your muscles trained to do things the way they need to be done.
In terms of the body of the note (ignoring the beginning and end), it sounds flat, likely do to two things... but they both affect one another. Tongue position and air volume (not pressure or speed but volume alone). I think if you lay the back of your tongue down a little, youll find that increase in air volume, and it will help fill out the note. It may help to separate the note into the three parts it really consists of, and focus on one at a time. In the case of the body of the note, it doesnt matter how you start or finish... just work on the quality of the note. Hold it out as long as you can and manipulate the sound and see what you can get it to do. Work on the gating (throat burst) by itself. And the end of the note by itself as well (though I find it easier to work on the body first or gating first, then body or gating, and ending the note as the last piece... because then you get more practice with the body or beginning or both, while youre practicing the end/cut off of the note.
If you listen to your file, youll hear the pitch change during the note. The upswing at the end is coming from a tongue position and timing issue. Sounds like the tongue is coming up too far forward causing the swing up in pitch before you stop the note with the combination of gating and tongue clocking the air. When I stop a note, I am not only stopping the air with the middle/mid back area of my tongue, but also with my throat. So there are two areas that air is getting shut down, and the timing is such that it almost, if not is, simultaneous. Keep at it... sooner or later youre going to hit that note and realize we havnt been lying to you. :D Your body is just fighting your brain :D
M rogers
What call are you blowing? The reason I ask, is same as I think what Stump is alluding to - You have a lot of the mechanics in place but call itself could very well be causing some of the deficiencies Im hearing... Im not bagging on your or the call, just descriptive things I am hearing (or not hearing in some cases), that could be call or caller, or both. If you were using a known call, that would allow one to hone in on the root of the situation more easily. But I also understand... not everyone can just go out and buy a CWF from stump or a Volochoke or what have you.
It sounds like the presentation is basically right, both at the start and the body of the note. The end, I can tell youre using the forward portion of your tongue, and a bit slow on cutting the air off with your throat because of the up swing in pitch at the end of the note. I think this is you moreso than the call.
Over all - the pitch is high to me. This could be you or the call or both. If its you, Id say you need to add air volume and reduce the speed of the air. Dropping the back and mid back of your tongue down a touch may do it all. (think saying "Ahhh" at the doctors but trying to make your tongue lay down far enough that the Doc doesnt need to use the Popsicle stick.) That will drop some air speed, by increasing volume and opening up the restriction. Also, planting the tip of your tongue below your bottom teeth may help. I notice when I call, the tip of my tongue is not at the gum line on my bottom teeth, but well below. Might be worth a shot as to keep the mid portion of your tongue from lifting up and causing an increase in air speed. If its the call (ie one you make)... um... there are a lot of possibilities there, but I would start by seeing if the reed is too short or not enough back bore.
In having the pitch be high, you are lacking some rasp or rattle as Stump calls it. That could be the call or the caller, or both. Try a long note, and altering tongue position while keeping air flow the same. If the call can do it, youll feel it. To me, the "rattle" in every portion of the call is the same oscillation of the reed as is the ring in a hail. When you ring a call, you feel it as well as hear it. Same with rattle or rasp... Youll feel it. If you can ring a hail note, do that, now move your tongue around taking the ring in and out... now, reduce the air and try the same thing on a middle or low range note.
I too hear upswings in some of your notes. Since it sounds like youre not doing it on fast notes, I think its a case of timing rather than motions. But if the front 1/3 of your tongue is moving at the end of the note, it could be the cause.
Keep at it guys! Being a better caller always help one be a better call maker.
And thanks a ton to Stump for this thread and all the input and all the guys willing to put it out there for people to listen to!
Wade
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Thanks Wade I'm sure part of it is me and I know part of that is the call it's the only one I had with me when I figured out how to post a sound file new computer lol. I Thing your right on with my tongue being to far forward at the end. I give it a try tonight and post it up. Thanks for the time guys
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http://s851.photobucket.com/user/jcluesman/media/20150311_153841.mp4.html
think I found it guys!
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(http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu91/m7rogers/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-03/th_609883BD-4103-4DE6-A22A-3D85A4CA67D2.mp4) (http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu91/m7rogers/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-03/609883BD-4103-4DE6-A22A-3D85A4CA67D2.mp4)
Better worse or about the same?
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Alright after a few days here is another try.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/80097267@N06/16167417724/
I also been trying to get the same on my last tone board I cut. so here it is a hedge tone board. vs Stumps acrylic tone board. maybe I shouldn't go back and forth with the two calls but just want to get the same results on my TB to see where I am at with my call making.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/80097267@N06/16602209878/in/photostream/
Thank again Stump and Wade!!!
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(http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu91/m7rogers/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/th_6A364DDF-2807-4DF7-80A8-96472E241978.mp4) (http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu91/m7rogers/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-04/6A364DDF-2807-4DF7-80A8-96472E241978.mp4)
I'm not done by a long shot but if you don't mind to give me an idea if I'm headed in the right direction with my pratice. Thanks Stump for helping me the other day.
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MUCH MUCH better.... I hear the throat burst (which will get less prominent as you move forward) and you structuring the quack with your air. In time you`ll develop speed and power in your air. But your moving forward sir!!!!
STUMP
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Alright after a few days here is another try.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/80097267@N06/16167417724/
I also been trying to get the same on my last tone board I cut. so here it is a hedge tone board. vs Stumps acrylic tone board. maybe I shouldn't go back and forth with the two calls but just want to get the same results on my TB to see where I am at with my call making.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/80097267@N06/16602209878/in/photostream/
Thank again Stump and Wade!!!
Im not really hearing any gating yet (or what Stump calls throat burst) and the note still seem to end with an upward swing in pitch. The pitch seems high and not very raspy, but that could be the recording, the call, or the caller. So its sort of hard to say there.
I think you might find it helpful to focus on one long slow quack, instead of a bunch of short fast ones. The quacks are so short and fast you dont have time to correct anything (at least midnote to bring the pitch down and add rasp). Figuring out the techniques comes from time working at it, and the longer your notes and slower they are, the more time you have to work on things and better chance you body has to adapt, and start creating a new muscle memory. Fast notes seem to me, to just continue to reinforce what ever it is youre doing now and not allow you to adapt and change.
Also, when working on technique... I would either stick with one call that you know can do the sounds youre after, or make darn sure that the other calls your floating around between, can make the same quality notes. I have seen many people, including myself, get completely frustrated when trying to learn, because they just cant get the "sound on the record" - only to find out years later... it wasnt them, it was the call... the call just wasnt capable. So be aware of that.
I am still a HUGE proponent of getting the Pro Duck Calling DVD and a Volochoke from Carlson Championship Calls, and work on the video with that call. Then you know you are comparing apples to apples... just a different apple eater :P
Okay, gotta get back to the asylum before they notice Im missing... been a mad house around here for a couple four weeks now. Whew.
Wade
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http://s851.photobucket.com/user/jcluesman/media/20150311_153841.mp4.html
think I found it guys!
Any thoughts on my last attempt?
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Am I hearing voice inflection through out the note? Sorta sounds like it.
And if so... thats restricting air volume and not making the reed oscillate properly. Its sort of hard to tell about the gating because it doesnt sound like full air volume is coming into the call. But it sounds like you might be starting with some gating, which is good!
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http://s851.photobucket.com/user/jcluesman/media/20150311_153841.mp4.html
think I found it guys!
Any thoughts on my last attempt?
You gotta walk before you run here....I think you may be just starting to get it but have a long ways to still go.
Yes you have the reed oscillating but your air is so flat that I wouldn't call that rattle.
One of the reasons I did not reply to previous posts.....there is no way that one reads a post and then turns right around and post a file saying is this it? Time and practice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOTS OF TIME!!!! For example, the cajun squeal took me 6 months to learn the basics and another 6-8 months to be able to do it properly when I wanted. Time gents and lots of blowing a duck call.
STUMP
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Stump & Wade (even though I know Wade is out right now),
Is this still a topic that we can post into and get replies from the masters? I got a GD2 in the mail secondhand the other day to find it all kinds of screwed up by the previous owner (huge dog ears, out of square, and shortened to about 1.480). I intend to send it in for some evaluation and once I get it back I would like to let you guys give me some critiquing if that is still on the table. Please let me know, and I understand I'm a bit late to the show on this one.
Thanks,
Danny H
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No worries boss...here to help
Stump
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Ditto. Happy to throw in my thoughts and help. Though I likely dont have the qualifications ole Stumpinator does.
Ill be slow to reply here for the next couple weeks, but will try and check in here and there.
Wade
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Ill get one up here in about a week or so. Is photo bucket the ideal way to post a file, or is there easier methods?
Thanks
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Hey stump I have been trying to get into calling contest more and more but I was using a call with a 1/4 in bore I switched to 7/32 it easier to blow but I have the issue of not knowing what a contest call should consist of. I have been playing with it is there some base line info you could share to further this process. Thank you
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Hey stump I have been trying to get into calling contest more and more but I was using a call with a 1/4 in bore I switched to 7/32 it easier to blow but I have the issue of not knowing what a contest call should consist of. I have been playing with it is there some base line info you could share to further this process. Thank you
Whether it is a meat or a mainstreet contest...both have the same requirements as far as the structure of the routine
1. Hail call
2. Greeting call
3. Feed call
5. Come back call
6. Lonesome hen
Stump
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Thank you