Poll

Is it OK to mold a set of gut or toneboard off of a modified original without the permission of the originator of the piece?

Heck no, that's just wrong!
13 (43.3%)
Probably not, I'd have trouble sleeping.
3 (10%)
Mabey, but it's got to be really modified.
3 (10%)
Sure, as long as it's approved.
6 (20%)
Sure, it's not like it's pattented.
5 (16.7%)

Total Members Voted: 29

Voting closed: March 12, 2010, 02:52:00 PM

Author Topic: Molding guts  (Read 837 times)

Offline Black Timber Calls

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Re: Molding guts
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2010, 08:11:15 PM »
I take back what I said about Field using his broke in cluckers to mold. It looks like in the very short time he has been gone from Zink that he might have actually designed a gut of his own and worn a set of them in because he offers a plain set and semi broken in set. He is good people and don't want to say something that is wrong about him
Trevor Shannahan
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Offline BigB

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Re: Molding guts
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2010, 10:20:43 PM »


Copying someone else's work is disgusting.  If done on accident can be forgiveable, but intentionally copied work shows a whole lot of disrespect, arrogance, ignorance, immoral behaviour and total lack of ethics.  It doesn't only disrespect the person's work that you copied, but it disrespects every other call maker out there as well.



Brian
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Offline Al_at_THO Game Calls

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Re: Molding guts
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2010, 10:41:04 PM »
If you want to use someone elses guts modified the way you like them, you should buy his guts and modify them.   To take his guts and mold them isn't ethical.   I really do not care who else does it, or how famous they are or anything else.  It's just underhanded and flat out wrong.   

I know that doesn't sit well with you, but honestly, I don't care.   Someone else created those guts.   The original design belongs to him.  You have every right to buy them from him and modify them if you want, but you have absolutely no right to mold his guts, either before or after you modify them.  I'll go so far as to say that if I find out you are doing this, I wont allow you to sell or post those calls on this board.     


AL @ THO
"You will find something far greater in the woods than you will find in books.   Stones and trees will teach you that which you will never learn from masters."

Offline Black Timber Calls

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Re: Molding guts
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2010, 12:02:35 AM »
If you want to use someone elses guts modified the way you like them, you should buy his guts and modify them.   To take his guts and mold them isn't ethical.   I really do not care who else does it, or how famous they are or anything else.  It's just underhanded and flat out wrong.   

I know that doesn't sit well with you, but honestly, I don't care.   Someone else created those guts.   The original design belongs to him.  You have every right to buy them from him and modify them if you want, but you have absolutely no right to mold his guts, either before or after you modify them.  I'll go so far as to say that if I find out you are doing this, I wont allow you to sell or post those calls on this board.     


AL @ THO
I respect your opinion and if I do end up doing it I will stick to only posting my duck calls on this board.

Here is my line of thinking on it though. I can't break in a set of guts and modify the wedge consistently, it took me a year and a half to get these the way I want them. Nor will I deal with somebody who has such total lack of customer service as the gut maker in question. I have no problems with doing this and I will lose no sleep at night. I am not copying his design, it is changed very much

I want the best possible product for my customers and they appreciate that. I might lose some of the purists buyers but I will gain a lot more of the everyday hunters with a good sounding call.
Trevor Shannahan
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Offline dogcatcher

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Re: Molding guts
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2010, 12:25:06 AM »
I want you to think about this.  You are 19 years old, a long time from the life experiences of some of the advice you have gotten.  I was retired before you got out of elementary school and Al was retired from the Marine Corp.  Both of us have been around the block more than once.  Both of us have lived across the United States and other parts of the world.  You are barely out of high school.  Do you really have any idea of what customers will or might think of you if you cross the line?  You only have a guess based on your 19 years of living.  Do what you think is best, but I believe the key word is "think".

Marvin
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Offline Al_at_THO Game Calls

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Re: Molding guts
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2010, 05:22:49 AM »
Quote
I respect your opinion and if I do end up doing it I will stick to only posting my duck calls on this board.

If you go through with your plan, your ability to post anything on this board will be in jeopardy.

If you buy the guts from the guy who makes them, modify them and use them, all is well.

If you buy one set, mold them for your own use, modified or not, that's stealing.   

I can't put it any more bluntly than that.   If you dont get it still, you're not the kind of call maker this board wants.  It will be just a matter of time before someone else has something you want to modify and you screw them over too.   

I wont let that happen.

Al @ THO


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Offline Jeff @ Mutt Calls

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Re: Molding guts
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2010, 07:51:24 AM »
Al, thank you for saying what I perceive that everone else wants to say.  This topic is now running in two forums and the popular vote is leaning way more towards to negative side. Black Timber, go ahead and do what you 'feel" is right for you, but allow me to caution you with one of life's lessons.... " That many people can't be wrong"

If all these folks in the call making community are relaying feedback to you and they are all saying pretty much the same thing, perhaps you are crossing lines?  I'm not going to pass judgement on you.  You have the ability to do whatever you want regarding the modification of these guts.  Just know now that the entire community here at THO and CCO knows what you are doing and do not approve of it. That, in and of itself should tell you something.  I got blasted a few years ago for showing off calls that had Echo inserts on another forum; I was called a barrel turner and not a custom call maker.  I was new to these forums and thought I was doing something wrong.  So I quit using the Echo inserts and started making my own inserts.  Are my inserts as good as Echo?  Maybe not... but they will never be misconstrued as someone else's design. You said it took you a year and a half to come up with your "modifed" design of the FWX guts?  Why didn't you use that valuable time to make your own and have them molded?  I don't think SR goose guts will ever be changed so much from the original Hess design?  Take a set of guts, use it them as a "pattern", and carve, whittle, drill, turn your own and move forward from there.  They will be yours!  No one will question that.  Just like Stlez did on CCO.  Duck sound boards and SR goose gut sound boards have been invented long before us... we may never come up with something to improve these items?  The concept is there so we all "cheat" a little. It is accepted in that respect.  I compare what you are doing to this:  You buy a set of Goodyear tires, over a year and a half you scrape all the white lettering off, you remove a tread here and there, you add a few new cuts in the tread pattern with a saw of some type to "improve" the ride and traction, you paint the tires purple, and then put them on a different set of rims.  You market these new and improved tires because they are the $hit. You don't sell them to race car drivers (comp callers), you sell them to mom and pop consumers (your average goose hunter).  What have you done?  You took a perfectly good tire, altered it, called it yours, and are making a buck for someone else's design. Do what you want... I think eventually you will lose sleep over it!

Mutt
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Offline Owens Custom Calls

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Re: Molding guts
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2010, 08:16:58 AM »
i think the biggest problem i have with the whole thing is that the original gut maker will not be making any money off a design he created.  you are cutting him out of his pay day by buying an item from him, then making a mold of it so that you don't have to buy any more from him.  i am also in the boat that says if you spent so long modifying another's guts, why not take that time to completely create your own from scratch?  don't take it personally, i just don't want to see you go down a wrong path.  my opinion is simply this:  it may be completely right or ethical in your mind.  BUT!!! if so many others feel so strongly against it, you will only be considered a plagiarizer whose only talent is his ability to use someone else's hard work.   can you live with that?

Offline Jeff @ Mutt Calls

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Re: Molding guts
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2010, 10:09:46 AM »
This dead horse might be worth beating a little more?

Mutt
For it is in the Woods, Fields, & Marshes that Retrievers make thier own legends... and become our heroes!



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Offline daren99

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Re: Molding guts
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2010, 10:43:41 AM »
What's your hurry to sell calls? You've been at this for what, 3 or 4 months maybe 5? Take the time to learn, come up with your own ideas and figure out the ins and outs, what works and what doesn't before you try to be the next Zink or Foiles. Your attitude shows your age and your arrogance. Gooseforsupper says it takes him about an hour to carve a set of guts out. You say you know so much about calling, well with your vast experience in calling and call making you should be able to whip out your own gut design in about a day or less even. You should be able to find time in your busy schedule for that. That 10 foot tall and bulletproof thing?, maybe... maybe not. As the saying goes... "The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary"

Daren

Offline Bob from Eames Custom Calls

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Re: Molding guts
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2010, 12:43:13 PM »
Ok guys, some great debates and valid points have come up on this one. Just remeber this is not a "beat on the new kid" poll, just a poll to show where the majority of ethics come to pass.

 Trevor, you will do what you will do, but remeber the most valuable tool a callmaker can have in his shop is his reputation.

 Good luck to all, I'm off to email Doug about getting some help on my guts... :bow:

 Bob
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Offline dogcatcher

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Re: Molding guts
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2010, 03:04:43 PM »
I'm off to email Doug about getting some help on my guts... :bow:

 Bob

I am old school, but I found if you are having problems with your gut, the best remedy is a double dose of castor oil. :clap:  That stuff will "fix" you right up. :bigup:
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Offline Al_at_THO Game Calls

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Re: Molding guts
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2010, 05:04:38 PM »
No need to fan the flames anymore.  We all had our say and let's just put this one to bed.    Please


 :thanks:

Al @ THO
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